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Despite what you have posted, I noticed that you ignored my mention of the first two verses of the Book of Revelation and the Book itself. The writer claims that the contents of the book were given to him DIRECTLY from Jesus Christ himself as to imply there is NO mistaking about any time frame. "Behold I come soon and my reward is with me!" Again, the writer tells his audience that what was mentioned in the [entire] book was SOON to come to pass.
As I have mentioned here before, apocalyptic books are NEVER concerned with distant futures. In EVERY case, they refer to the present time or the near future. Today this is STILL the case, as each world crisis is followed by loads of "End Times" books on Christian bookshelves, all claiming a soon return of Jesus and this has been going on for centuries now.
I maintain my position that Jesus (or those who put the worlds on his lips) led his audience to believe he was coming back in THEIR generation (..."there are some of you standing here before me who will not die before they see me come back in glory"). He even tells the High Priest that he and his court would see him coming back in power and glory. Jesus NEVER came back and this is the very reason the succeeding generations of Christians have had to "rescue" the expectations and re-interpret them to churn out multiple interpretations and explanations.
The fact that the various events in Revelation were to take place in the near future is stated 7 times:
“things which must shortly come to pass [or “be done]” Rev 1:1; 22:6. “ the time is at hand” Rev 1:3. “Behold [or] surely I come quickly” Rev 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20. Indirect references to the same idea are found in Rev 6:11; 12:12; 17:10.
It does not state that EVERYthing revealed in the Revelation was shortly to come to pass. Not all that John saw in the visions of Revelation was future, for example, the birth of the man child and the casting out of Satan (Rev 12), but many of the things revealed related to events future of John’s day (A.D. 96).
As the events described spanned history it would ever be true that there were: “things which must shortly come to pass.”
Paul wrote “the day of Christ was at hand.” Rom 13:12. Jesus would have come quickly if the church had done its work.
The promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. He will come quickly if the church does it’s work. The statements that the return of Christ is imminent is conditional upon the response of His church. God knew that Christ’s return would be delayed by over 2000 years but He spoke of it in terms of His will & purpose, God wants Christ’s return to occur as soon as possible, and His words show the church that no delay is necessary.
That the church was always to consider the second coming as imminent and urgent, was always to inspire and motivate the church to fulfil its duty in sharing the gospel and getting ready personally.
As said, God knew that the church would not be ready and the prophecies reflect that foreknowledge.
Daniel 2 is a clear example of that. Four consecutive empires, the rise of the early foundations of modern Europe on the back of the collapsed Roman pagan empire,during which time was Jesus first advent after which would come the rise of the antichrist and its reign of 1260 years throughout the dark ages, and then, and only then, the second coming.
Further prophecies and visions of Daniel all follow the same pattern, repeating and enlarging on the original vision, providing more detail.
Far from man putting off the day of Christ's return, the prophecies are accurate and understandable when seen in their historical context.
For more detailed explanation feel free to read and comment here: http://brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/the-beasts-of-daniel-and-overview/ (http://http//brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/the-beasts-of-daniel-and-overview/ - broken link)
Take a tour around that site and see much more detail and explanation particularly the characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and the article "Antichrist revealed".
IADM, Jesus is coming back, as promised. He is coming back when the church is good and ready. The church is described as a vine, and when its fruit is ripe, then the harvest will be ready. There are two peoples in these last days. God's people, and unbelievers. Both camps, when considered as fruit ripening for harvest, are indeed ripening. The world is growing steadily worse in its sin and rebellion and unbelief. The world is becoming more and more hardened in its opposition to the things of God, while going down the roads and byways of its own devising such as new age spiritualism and false religion. Jesus said that the time of His coming would find the world as it was in the days of Noah: filled with violence, corruption, selfish godless pleasure seeking and stubborn refusal to submit to God's righteousness, rejecting the final call to repentance.Sadly, the same word of God reveals that a large, even majority portion of the church would fall away from truth and apostatise, while still blindly clinging to its belief that they are saved regardless.A quick look at the major TV mega churches and televangelists etc provide ample evidence at how far from Biblical truth and primitive Christianity they have gone.
Meanwhile the church is preparing itself for the latter rain which will put the final touch on the ripening harvest.
2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
The fact that the various events in Revelation were to take place in the near future is stated 7 times:
“things which must shortly come to pass [or “be done]” Rev 1:1; 22:6. “ the time is at hand” Rev 1:3. “Behold [or] surely I come quickly” Rev 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20. Indirect references to the same idea are found in Rev 6:11; 12:12; 17:10.
It does not state that EVERYthing revealed in the Revelation was shortly to come to pass. Not all that John saw in the visions of Revelation was future, for example, the birth of the man child and the casting out of Satan (Rev 12), but many of the things revealed related to events future of John’s day (A.D. 96).
As the events described spanned history it would ever be true that there were: “things which must shortly come to pass.”
Paul wrote “the day of Christ was at hand.” Rom 13:12. Jesus would have come quickly if the church had done its work.
The promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. He will come quickly if the church does it’s work. The statements that the return of Christ is imminent is conditional upon the response of His church. God knew that Christ’s return would be delayed by over 2000 years but He spoke of it in terms of His will & purpose, God wants Christ’s return to occur as soon as possible, and His words show the church that no delay is necessary.
That the church was always to consider the second coming as imminent and urgent, was always to inspire and motivate the church to fulfil its duty in sharing the gospel and getting ready personally.
As said, God knew that the church would not be ready and the prophecies reflect that foreknowledge.
Daniel 2 is a clear example of that. Four consecutive empires, the rise of the early foundations of modern Europe on the back of the collapsed Roman pagan empire,during which time was Jesus first advent after which would come the rise of the antichrist and its reign of 1260 years throughout the dark ages, and then, and only then, the second coming.
Further prophecies and visions of Daniel all follow the same pattern, repeating and enlarging on the original vision, providing more detail.
Far from man putting off the day of Christ's return, the prophecies are accurate and understandable when seen in their historical context.
For more detailed explanation feel free to read and comment here: http://brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/the-beasts-of-daniel-and-overview/ (http://http//brakelite.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/the-beasts-of-daniel-and-overview/ - broken link)
Take a tour around that site and see much more detail and explanation particularly the characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and the article "Antichrist revealed".
IADM, Jesus is coming back, as promised. He is coming back when the church is good and ready. The church is described as a vine, and when its fruit is ripe, then the harvest will be ready. There are two peoples in these last days. God's people, and unbelievers. Both camps, when considered as fruit ripening for harvest, are indeed ripening. The world is growing steadily worse in its sin and rebellion and unbelief. The world is becoming more and more hardened in its opposition to the things of God, while going down the roads and byways of its own devising such as new age spiritualism and false religion. Jesus said that the time of His coming would find the world as it was in the days of Noah: filled with violence, corruption, selfish godless pleasure seeking and stubborn refusal to submit to God's righteousness, rejecting the final call to repentance.Sadly, the same word of God reveals that a large, even majority portion of the church would fall away from truth and apostatise, while still blindly clinging to its belief that they are saved regardless.A quick look at the major TV mega churches and televangelists etc provide ample evidence at how far from Biblical truth and primitive Christianity they have gone.
Meanwhile the church is preparing itself for the latter rain which will put the final touch on the ripening harvest.
2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I was patiently waiting for that 2 Peter reference.
Anyway, your post here proves my point. The passages have to be re-interpreted (and I have heard some doozies in my time) and the "fulfillments" always shoved into the future with each passing day. The bottom line is, if Jesus did NOT come back as he said he would (or the writers who placed the words of his lips wanted to convey), then, why of course, just say Jesus did not mean "then." After all, there is NO way Jesus could have been wrong, right? There is no way the inspired writers could have been leading people into believing some fantasy!
Why does a great god, supposedly one who controls the destiny of all men and one who rules and can overrule the wishes or complacency of men have to depend on mere mortals to do what he needs to do? He has to wait on the church to get its act together before he does what he needs to do? Will mortal men EVER get their act together? It's been 2,000 years of church corruption, apathy, hypocrisy, missionary work and the likes and still NO Jesus. There was even a time in the mid to late 1800s and early 1900s when church revivals were sweeping all over the place, even influencing world politics and still no Jesus. In fact, these were on the heels of and in the midst
of various upheavals (American, French and Haitian Revolutions then World Wars I and II) and still no sign of a returning Jesus. These were boon times for the church. Now the church is steadily losing adherents and more and more people sit in their pews not even sure what they believe or pretend they are believing (gotta keep up appearances, ya know) and this is the church Jesus is supposedly coming back for? I have my doubts for more reason than one, Brakelite.
I was patiently waiting for that 2 Peter reference.
Anyway, your post here proves my point. The passages have to be re-interpreted (and I have heard some doozies in my time) and the "fulfillments" always shoved into the future with each passing day. The bottom line is, if Jesus did NOT come back as he said he would (or the writers who placed the words of his lips wanted to convey), then, why of course, just say Jesus did not mean "then." After all, there is NO way Jesus could have been wrong, right? There is no way the inspired writers could have been leading people into believing some fantasy!
Why does a great god, supposedly one who controls the destiny of all men and one who rules and can overrule the wishes or complacency of men have to depend on mere mortals to do what he needs to do? He has to wait on the church to get its act together before he does what he needs to do? Will mortal men EVER get their act together? It's been 2,000 years of church corruption, apathy, hypocrisy, missionary work and the likes and still NO Jesus. There was even a time in the mid to late 1800s and early 1900s when church revivals were sweeping all over the place, even influencing world politics and still no Jesus. In fact, these were on the heels of and in the midst
of various upheavals (American, French and Haitian Revolutions then World Wars I and II) and still no sign of a returning Jesus. These were boon times for the church. Now the church is steadily losing adherents and more and more people sit in their pews not even sure what they believe or pretend they are believing (gotta keep up appearances, ya know) and this is the church Jesus is supposedly coming back for? I have my doubts for more reason than one, Brakelite.
You misunderstand the nature of prophetic interpretation. Down through the ages it is true that each generation had an expectation and hope that Jesus would come in their time. In the OT each generation of Israelites hoped that their generation would witness the first coming of Messiah,with each potential mother hoping they would be the one specially chosen to be the mother of the Saviour. Even Eve had this hope, and thought her first born was He, naming him Abel, a name of hope and gratitude, however, mankind had to wait until the right time.
So it is today. But prophecy isn't given that we may be clairvoyants and know the future. Jesus said: John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Prophecy is to be understood by looking at past fulfilment and learning from history how God's purposes and plans have unfolded. From our vantage point in history, we can look back and see how, for example, that Daniel 11 has been fulfilled throughout the timeline of history beginning from his day, and leaving but 5 verses to be fulfilled. Those five verses we do not know exactly how or when they will unfold, but by comparing the imagery and symbolism of other prophecies, we are better able than previous generations to know what is next, without guessing.
For example, it is now 200 years since the papacy for all intents and purposes ceased to exist when the pope was captured by Napoleon's army under Berthier, the papal states confiscated and the college of cardinals disbanded. The church/state union of Roman Catholicism was dead.The prophecies clearly stated however that this union would be reinstituted, and Biblical expositors the world over taught this, despite the worlds politicians claiming the papacy would never revive and forbidding the re-election of a pope.
The Bible knew better. Not only was the papacy to be re-established but she would grow to be a global power eclipsing even her own past in Europe. More than that, the Bible adds that the protestant churches would return to the fold and be instrumental in giving the papacy global authority over all religiun and state powers.
I suggest a book "The Keys of this Blood" by Jesuit Malachi Martin for a vivid insight into papal ambitions.
Soon on the prophetic timetable is the establishment of papal power in the world and it will be an apostate protestantism in America that will accomplish this, after a world uniting to counter the many disasters and crisis that the world will face in the near future.
You misunderstand the nature of prophetic interpretation. Down through the ages it is true that each generation had an expectation and hope that Jesus would come in their time. In the OT each generation of Israelites hoped that their generation would witness the first coming of Messiah,with each potential mother hoping they would be the one specially chosen to be the mother of the Saviour. Even Eve had this hope, and thought her first born was He, naming him Abel, a name of hope and gratitude, however, mankind had to wait until the right time.
So it is today. But prophecy isn't given that we may be clairvoyants and know the future. Jesus said: John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Prophecy is to be understood by looking at past fulfilment and learning from history how God's purposes and plans have unfolded. From our vantage point in history, we can look back and see how, for example, that Daniel 11 has been fulfilled throughout the timeline of history beginning from his day, and leaving but 5 verses to be fulfilled. Those five verses we do not know exactly how or when they will unfold, but by comparing the imagery and symbolism of other prophecies, we are better able than previous generations to know what is next, without guessing.
For example, it is now 200 years since the papacy for all intents and purposes ceased to exist when the pope was captured by Napoleon's army under Berthier, the papal states confiscated and the college of cardinals disbanded. The church/state union of Roman Catholicism was dead.The prophecies clearly stated however that this union would be reinstituted, and Biblical expositors the world over taught this, despite the worlds politicians claiming the papacy would never revive and forbidding the re-election of a pope.
The Bible knew better. Not only was the papacy to be re-established but she would grow to be a global power eclipsing even her own past in Europe. More than that, the Bible adds that the protestant churches would return to the fold and be instrumental in giving the papacy global authority over all religiun and state powers.
I suggest a book "The Keys of this Blood" by Jesuit Malachi Martin for a vivid insight into papal ambitions.
Soon on the prophetic timetable is the establishment of papal power in the world and it will be an apostate protestantism in America that will accomplish this, after a world uniting to counter the many disasters and crisis that the world will face in the near future.
Well, I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I am throughly convinced that the writers of the NT, supposedly speaking for Jesus, taught their listeners that Jesus was coming back after it was recognized that he died and not seen again. The entire mood of the NT reflects this so I have no reason to think otherwise. It also makes absolutely no sense to me that a god, who could end the world's miseries with this "second coming," has chosen to "have patience" when the GREAT majority of mankind has not accepted him and NEVER has. What then is his patience for? Oh well. I guess his ways are past understanding as they say.
Well, I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I am throughly convinced that the writers of the NT, supposedly speaking for Jesus, taught their listeners that Jesus was coming back after it was recognized that he died and not seen again.
The thing is, He was seen again. By over 500 at one time, as well as by all the apostles and disciples. And before you say anything, the Jewish rulers, because they hated the new religion so much, could have very easily produced the body and that would have nipped Christianity in the bud. The new faith would never have grown past the first month if Jesus had not resurrected. Christianity is based on the death and resurrrection of Christ. Without a living Jesus, Christianity is as many believe just a myth and another man-made religion. Like I said elsewhere however, Christianity is different because Jesus is alive and offers man a relationship with Him if they but believe. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
The entire mood of the NT reflects this so I have no reason to think otherwise. It also makes absolutely no sense to me that a god, who could end the world's miseries with this "second coming," has chosen to "have patience" when the GREAT majority of mankind has not accepted him and NEVER has. What then is his patience for? Oh well. I guess his ways are past understanding as they say.
If understood correctly, the OT also reveals the second coming. The Jewish rulers misunderstood the prophecies regarding the Messiah and applied those of His second coming (as a King and Deliverer) to His first (as the suffering Servant and Sacrifice), therefore they did not recognise Him. They had become so selfish in their ways by this time, had apostatised from true Biblical faith, that they were not ready for a call to repentance and holiness. They just wanted freedom from Rome, not recognising that the very reason Rome was in Palestine was because of their unfaithfulness. This in no way however annuls the second. Most of the NT prophecies merely echoed OT prophecies of the same event. The book of Revelation for example repeats much of what can be seen in the book of Daniel.
Even the ancient sacrificial system established by Moses,1500 years before Christ, the services of the sanctuary, the special feast days and annual Sabbaths was a picture of the entire gospel story, and incorporated within it both appearances of the Saviour. The first as the sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, (John 1:29,36; 1 Peter 1:19; Revel. 5:5,6.), which was prefigured by the sacrifice of the animal at the very beginning of the sanctuary service, the second coming by the appearance of the High Priest emerging from the sanctuary after ministering in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. (Yom Kippur), which was the second to last act and the penultimate day of the Jewish religious calendar. The last day being the feast of tabernacles which prefigured our occuption in heaven.
At present Jesus is in the original sanctuary in heaven of which those on earth were copies. There He ministers as our High Priest, and it is to Him we can now appeal and receive forgiveness so long as He remains there as our Mediator between ourselves and God. No other human intermediary is required; no church, priest, pastor, religion or saint or Mary need come between man and God...Jesus can be appealed to directly for the forgiveness of sin and for help in anything that pertains to our salvation.
Soon however , as various prophecies reveal, His time in the heavenly sanctuary will terminate and He will return to the earth, not any more as High Priest, but
Revelation 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
When He leaves the sanctuary, there will be no more High priest or Mediator...no more minister on our behalf will be before the throne of God...thus any appeals after Jesus leaves the temple will be too late.
And He will declare: Revel.22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
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Matthew 24
