Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, I absolutely, positively am not that man! (I am a woman. The "Kat" part of my screen name actually is from "Kathryn," my given name.)
I may believe the Book of Mormon, but you will never find me using it in a debate here on this forum. I never engage in a debate here without being able to support my position by an appeal to the Bible alone. That's how I am able to keep our debates on a level playing field, as you say. I can confidently defend my position very effectively on any topic you might want to discuss and never mention the Book of Mormon. If you didn't already know I was LDS, you would have no idea that that was the case based on how I debate on this forum.
Well Kathryn you sure did put a big smile on my face today. I should have known that you were a woman. Great writer! LOL I'm pleased to meet you Kathryn. I'm glad to know you won't be using any other book than the Bible. I'm sure we will have some great debates.
Katie
Regarding baptism: I believe scripture symbolically speaks of Jesus death on the cross as a "baptism" and Jesus also refers to it as such. It's that baptism of Jesus that saves us, and that Paul referred to as being "one baptism".
In 1 Cor 15:1-4, Paul speaks of the Gospel proclaiming that Christ died for our sins, and rose from the dead for our justification (Rom 4:25). The Gospel is often referred to as "the faith". It is that faith (or faithfulness) of Christ, going to the cross and dying for our sins, and being resurrected, that actually forgives our sins, justifies us before God and saves, or will eventually save all.
That baptism of Christ on the cross is imputed to all who believe. That's what I meant by saying Christ's baptism is imputed to those who believe.
I believe that individually, as believers, when we are physically baptized it is our identification with Christ that we are baptized into His death and resurrected with Him to newness of life. That's what I mean by it. I also believe that baptism is a means of grace for our spiritual walk with Christ in sanctification.
I agree with much of what you said, and yes Jesus does refer to his death on the cross as a "baptism." And everyone agrees that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. However, you take a mighty leap when you say that Paul calls this the ONE baptism.
I see the one baptism as the one that occurred on the day of Pentecost when the 3000 were baptized in water for the remission of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Are you saying that we do not need to be baptized because Jesus underwent a baptism at the cross, and so we don't need to be immersed in water for remission of sins? If that is what you are saying, I disagree.
one must remember that Scripture speaks of many kinds of baptism...by fire, faith, water, trial, and so-forth. the baptism described by paul, presumably, was that baptism which established our covenant of salvation w/ christ and his church.
I see both as acts of righteousness being fulfilled by Christ on our behalf. Jesus' physical baptism by John looked forward to the cross, while Jesus' faithfulness to be baptized with a spiritual "baptism" occurred on the cross for us.
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus arrives from Galilee to the Jordan, to John, to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:14 But John restrained Him, saying, I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?
Mat 3:15 But answering, Jesus said to him, Allow it now, for it is becoming to us this way to fulfill all righteousness. Then he allows Him.
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God,
Rom 3:26 for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus.
It's Christ's own faithfulness and baptism at the cross that saves. And I believe both are imputed to those who believe.
Amen. And thank you for taking the time to type and post these things.
Are you saying that we do not need to be baptized because Jesus underwent a baptism at the cross, and so we don't need to be immersed in water for remission of sins? If that is what you are saying, I disagree.
It's not that we shouldn't be obedient to the commands of Christ, we should. However, in our so doing we should not think of it as accomplishing for us what has already been accomplished by Christ. If a person believes they are being baptized in order to have their sins forgiven, it's obvious that they do not believe their sins were forgiven by Jesus on the cross, right? They really do not believe the proclamation of the Gospel.
How one reads and understands scripture is indicative of their belief in the Gospel. A person who does not really believe that Jesus died for their sins and was raised for their justification, will of necessity place faith in their faith, and in their works, and in their baptism, or whatever they feel is necessary to accomplish what was really accomplished by Jesus.
For example: Abraham believed the promises of God, not in order to make the promise true, but because he believed they were true. In fact, the promises given to Abraham by God, were true whether Abraham believed them or not. On the other hand, if we consider Abraham's wife Sarah, she did not believe the promises of God, and yet God still made good on those promises, for Abraham's sake.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD ? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
Fast forward one year:
Gen 21:1 AND the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
Gen 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
In like manner, God makes good on the faith (or faithfulness) of Christ, for Christ's sake (like Abraham), even for the unbeliever, like Sarah.
It's not that we shouldn't be obedient to the commands of Christ, we should. However, in our so doing we should not think of it as accomplishing for us what has already been accomplished by Christ. If a person believes they are being baptized in order to have their sins forgiven, it's obvious that they do not believe their sins were forgiven by Jesus on the cross, right? They really do not believe the proclamation of the Gospel.
Wrong -- in my opinion. But let me clarify. I don't believe that it's an either/or kind of thing. For instance I would never say that we must be baptized because Christ's Atonement was insufficient to redeem us, because I believe that His Atonement was absolutely essential to our salvation. Baptism, though, was referred to throughout the New Testament as being "for the remission of sins." That is plainly stated and can hardly be simply ignored.
Hebrews 5:9 states, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." In other words, Christ's Atonement promises salvation to those who obey Him. He commanded us to be baptized. By doing so we are obeying Him. Baptism is the means by which we make a commitment to Him that we are willing to take His name upon ourselves, obey His commandments and endure to the end. When we do this, we are forgiven of our sins. When we try to argue that baptism is not for the remission of sins after all, we are speaking in direct contradition to what the scriptures say its purpose is.
Wrong -- in my opinion. But let me clarify. I don't believe that it's an either/or kind of thing. For instance I would never say that we must be baptized because Christ's Atonement was insufficient to redeem us, because I believe that His Atonement was absolutely essential to our salvation. Baptism, though, was referred to throughout the New Testament as being "for the remission of sins." That is plainly stated and can hardly be simply ignored.
Hebrews 5:9 states, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." In other words, Christ's Atonement promises salvation to those who obey Him. He commanded us to be baptized. By doing so we are obeying Him. Baptism is the means by which we make a commitment to Him that we are willing to take His name upon ourselves, obey His commandments and endure to the end. When we do this, we are forgiven of our sins. When we try to argue that baptism is not for the remission of sins after all, we are speaking in direct contradition to what the scriptures say its purpose is.
You'll need to look at the word "for" and how it's being translated in such places as Acts 2:38, etc. While it's true that the Greek word εἰς may be understood with the meaning you've given it, it need not be. Here is an example (again translated from the Greek εἰς) where it means because of, or on account of:
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at [εἰς] the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Regarding Heb 5:9: The word "obey" means to "hear" attentively, to harken to a command. And consequently, to believe in what we "hear" and to obey it. If we obey (believe) the Gospel that are sins are "forgiven", how is it possible that our sins remain un-forgiven or un-remitted, until baptism? The only way that can be is if one is disobedient to the Gospel, of which Peter warns:
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
I really believe how one views and understands the Gospel (obeys the Gospel), namely: That Jesus died and forgave us our sins on the cross and He was raised because of our justification, will ultimately determine how each of us will approach, understand, hear and view the scriptures we read.
Anyway, I do enjoy reading your comments. You have a way of making your points without contention .
i am simply commenting at this particular time because i, like most others, see why we, as children of God, fall into temptation, disobedience, and a failure to please our Savior. to me, it seems that we, so often, attempt to walk the line of obedience, w/ our desire to remain perfectly on that straight line, veering neither to the left nor right---remaining dead center of it. as Christians, however, it would seem that we would want to walk as closely as possible in this walk. after all, the concept of "the very least, the minimum, the smallest, or the least thought out of any one thing, is usually unacceptable or, if it is accepted by our God, the Christ, or his church, it is considered for how it is given.
in short, it seems to be inherently present in man to push the mark on giving---giving of self, of talents, time, and material gifts. upon deciding on the gift, we humans begin to define our giving, weather it is defined by the best, the most, or the nicest of our belongings. it may be odd to some who read this, but as someone who has considered himself a student of the Bible, it wasn't until the last year and a half that i really understood what the real meaning of faith is, as i considered all that led up to Issac's offering by his father, abraham. too, the faith that our Lord had to trust that his Father would care for him. the trust and the obedience of a son to his father, after three prayers in a garden, by a son---one of his loneliest moments in life---the Father willed the death of an only son on a cross.
again, it seems so often that we, who identify ourselves as Christians, so often have the attitude of doing as little to get by, ride the line, virtually, tempt the Lord w/ our decisions regarding obedience; yet, it should be a matter of doing the most, going the extra mile, the extra distance. in my view, some of this topic seems to parse a bit of "how little" can i do and continue to "get by."
Anyway, I do enjoy reading your comments. You have a way of making your points without contention .
Thank you! That is the nicest compliment I've had in a long time.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The "Kat" part of my screen name actually is from "Kathryn," my given name.)
LOL I'm pleased to meet you Kathryn. I'm glad to know you won't be using any other book than the Bible. I'm sure we will have some great debates.
