98 Percent Of Catholic Women Use Birth Control Banned By Church (hell, churches)
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Jesus of the Gospels clearly didn't come with a simple message of "You're great, just do what most of you agree is right to do anyway." He threw out money-changers and even told people to be willing to abandon their family for the kingdom of God.
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Jesus of the Gospels certainly didn't come with a list of do's and dont's as dictated by the hierarchy of our Church; somewhere along the line many in the hierarchy have forgotten the Gospel message.
Jesus of the Gospels certainly didn't come with a list of do's and dont's as dictated by the hierarchy of our Church; somewhere along the line many in the hierarchy have forgotten the Gospel message.
I hate doing this but if you think the hierarchy of the Church is irrelevant, and it's all just the Gospels, why are you Catholic? This, plus your emphasis on consensus, sounds much more like a Quaker view. I know that will sound like "running you out" but it's just that I don't get you. I would want my religion to be something I believe in, not just something where I say "I was born into this, they have to accept whatever I (or the US) thinks on anything."
And anyway Jesus did tell people to do or not do things. The Beatitudes could even be deemed a list of dos. And if we look at the Gospels Jesus clearly seems to say you can't remarry after divorce accept maybe in cases of "lewd conduct." How many Catholics agree to that? Do you?
And anyway Jesus did tell people to do or not do things. The Beatitudes could even be deemed a list of dos. And if we look at the Gospels Jesus clearly seems to say you can't remarry after divorce accept maybe in cases of "lewd conduct." How many Catholics agree to that? Do you?
So now you are equating the pronouncements of the hierarchy to be on par with what Jesus said, I don't think so.
Many of the rules and regulations that the hierarchy comes up with (many times out of thin air) are based on power and control of people.
Throughout the gospels Jesus's main concern were on social justice issues, how we treat our fellow man/woman.
I know it is hard for some Catholics to fathom that when all they hear in the conservative/orthodox churches that they attend are homilies about the sin of birth control ,obligations to attend Mass, obedience to the hierarchy etc. not to mention the sin of voting for a democrat.
As far as any prohibition on divorce, you must remember the audience Jesus was talking to; this audience treated women as second class citizens ( much like the hierarchy does today)they were treated like property, they could turn away their wives, leave them without any visible means of support by simple issuing a simple statement; again let us not forget Jesus's main theme of social justice.
I hate doing this but if you think the hierarchy of the Church is irrelevant, and it's all just the Gospels,
Thomas being a Catholic Christian is about Jesus and the Gospels and trying to live out the Gospel message, it's not about the hierarchy allthough there is a legit need for leadership in the Church.
I guess that point is lost on people that think like you.
The hierarchy is suppose to exist (to serve) the people, the people are not suppose to exist (to serve) the hierarchy.
I hate doing this but if you think the hierarchy of the Church is irrelevant, and it's all just the Gospels, why are you Catholic? This, plus your emphasis on consensus, sounds much more like a Quaker view.
Quakers support peace which isn't a bad thing; did you know that Cardinal Spellman once sent out Christmas Cards showing a picture of himself standing on an aircraft carrier, he was a great supporter of our military killing commies in SouthEast Asia.
Thomas have you ever wonder why the hierarchy has Pope John Paul II who did absolutly nothing about the child sex abuse in the Church in the almost 30 years while he was pope on the fast track for sainthood while Archbishop Oscar Romero who was shot and kill while saying Mass for his outspoken support for the poor in his country has not been declared a saint yet?
In fact the none support of the hierarchy for Archbishop Romero may well have contribute to his murder, knowing that there would be little or no outrage by the hierarchy of our Church.
Which by the way happened during the long reign of Pope John Paul II who showed very little support for the poor of the Latin American countries but favored the governments and rich land owners, why was that?
I think we all know who the real saint is, at least some of us do.
Thomas being a Catholic Christian is about Jesus and the Gospels and trying to live out the Gospel message, it's not about the hierarchy although there is a legit need for leadership in the Church.
I guess that point is lost on people that think like you.
The hierarchy is suppose to exist (to serve) the people, the people are not suppose to exist (to serve) the hierarchy.
Frankly I'm pretty confident I have a better grasp on what Catholicism is than you do. I'm starting to remember why I put you on ignore.
The hierarchy are the teachers of the faith and have a role of definition. It's not that they can or should rule us like kings, but like maybe scientists they have the knowledge/authority to define terms or understanding. In addition Catholicism is "apostolic" as the Nicene Creed itself states. (If the Nicene Creed is just a hierarchy thing to you I believe the Apostle's Creed also says the Church is apostolic) This is so basic it's sad you ignore that or just brush it off. For that matter the Bible itself has more than just the Gospels as it also contains Acts, the writings of Paul, of Peter, etc. Granted the Gospels are certainly central and of course so is Jesus.
Let's look now at some statements in Vatican II documents and see how you feel on them.
This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion.(1*) And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful. (My emphasis) Continuing in that same undertaking, this Council is resolved to declare and proclaim before all men the doctrine concerning bishops, the successors of the apostles, who together with the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ,(2*) the visible Head of the whole Church, govern the house of the living God...
But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*) This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29*) This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.
Lumen Gentium
By virtue of sacramental consecration and hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college, bishops are constituted as members of the episcopal body.(1) "The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in teaching and pastoral direction, or rather, in the episcopal order, the apostolic body continues without a break. Together with its head, the Roman pontiff, and never without this head it exists as the subject of supreme, plenary power over the universal Church. But this power cannot be exercised except with the agreement of the Roman pontiff."(2) This power however, "is exercised in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council."(3) Therefore, this sacred synod decrees that all bishops who are members of the episcopal college, have the right to be present at an ecumenical council.
Christus Dominus
Catholicism is not simply "The Gospels as interpreted by progressive people" or even "The Gospels as interpreted by a majority of those in the most developed nations." What you want I think really is more like Quakerism. And Quakerism to me is a fine faith in many ways which did many positive things in history. I would hope you find your way to it, if I didn't know you'd find that insulting.
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