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ANTREDD - "I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
"In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism."
I answered you in Post 54.
Now in your most current post, you completely changed the subject to "How a person loses his salvation once he has the Holy Spirit." I'm wondering if you accidentally posted this question to me when it was intended for someone else? I don't mind answering any questions anyone asks, but would it be possible for us to finish one topic before starting another? I would really like you to respond to my Post 54. I thought we were having an excellent discussion, and I would be interested in knowing what you think.
Thank You,
Katie
I guess I was tired when I replied to your post. But do you believe in the doctrine of Justification? That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7
Jewish ceremonial purifications were used under the Law of Moses. John’s baptism was Jewish ceremonial of purification (See John 3:25-26). John was practicing a “baptism” that was fully in line with the Law of Moses.
Maybe I missed something since I haven't really studied this out for myself, but my understanding is that "baptism" under the Law of Moses was self-administered and was mainly ceremonial. The reason everyone came out to see John the Baptist was because he was baptizing other people and linking it with repentance and the forgiveness of sins. That had never been done before. It was a novelty and it made John the Baptist famous because he was doing it. If what John was doing was fully in line with the Law of Moses I think most people, if they heard about him at all, would have had a "ho-hum" attitude about it.
I guess I was tired when I replied to your post. But do you believe in the doctrine of Justification? That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7
Maybe I haven't been making myself clear. I absolutely believe we are saved by God's mercy (grace), and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. That is exactly HOW we are saved. I have never questioned that for a moment. God gets all the credit. I get none.
My point is WHEN are we saved. When exactly is our point of pardon? I believe it is when we are baptized, and that the scriptures support my belief. There is nothing in the water that is magical. It is the time that God has chosen to redeem us. It is when we die, just as He died. It is when we are buried, just as He was buried. It is when we are raised to walk in a new life, just as He was raised. Baptism is WHEN we are saved, not HOW.
Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Peter said, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." I see absolutely no reason to boast about my salvation. God did it all. The only thing I did was to submit to His will.
When you ask if I believe in the doctrine of justification, I'm not exactly sure what that entails. Are we justified by faith? I believe we are. But faith is never alone. From the very beginning of the Bible to the end, faith is always accompanied by action. Think about Cain and Abel. Which one obeyed by offering the better sacrifice? Story after story shows faith accompanied by action. That's what James meant when he said, "Faith without works is dead."
Hope that explains where I am coming from. I don't expect you to agree, and that's okay. Each of us has to give an account of himself/herself. Thank you. I have enjoyed our discussion. I really would have liked your take on my long post, but I understand if you'd rather not comment.
Sorry katie . . . I won't trouble you anymore. You seem sincere and I am confident you follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" . . . which is all that really matters to me. You would call me a Christian Mystic . . . but I am just a Christian who follows Christ and also understands the science behind what we are expected to do. I generally do not engage with literalists because there is no common ground between us (except for the love of Christ).
However . . . there ARE those whose attitudes and views are so dangerous and destructive of God's love for us all and our love for one another . . . that I make exceptions and engage their nonsense directly. I know the scriptures contain God-inspired revelations . . . but they have been interpreted and recorded by ignorant primitives and translated across cultures and generations so many times the inspirations are not easily gleaned from them. They also must be properly divided as to content and purpose . . . the OT tells of Christ and provides the means to validate Him . . but it has egregiously distorted and savage beliefs about God that Jesus came to correct by His example and teaching in the NT.
Thank you for your honesty Mystic. I do appreciate that, and please don't ever feel you are bothering me. I have no doubt you love the Lord just as I do. We just approach it differently. I believe each of us has to give an account of himself/herself, and I am ready to do that when my time comes.
As for translations of the Bible..........did you know that yesterday was the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible? I heard that on the new. I prefer using the King James over some of the newer translations, but that's just me.
IMHO, the Bible is all we have, and we can choose to trust it completely, or not. I believe the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to have kept it pure for ordinary folks like me. I believe the words within, especially those that tell us what we need for salvation and a guide to living a good christian life, are all we need. So all of my decisions are based on the Bible and the direction it gives me.
I know other people use other books, etc. beyond the Bible. When that is the case, it is difficult for me to debtate or discuss doctrine. We are not on the same level playing field, so to speak. I mean no offense by that, but someone who believes in the Bible only, cannot debate fairly with someone who goes beyong the Bible. Like you said, we have no common ground.
Kids in America
Can you show me chapter and verse when the blood of Christ is applied for our sins ?
"Soitenly!"
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1 John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
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Originally Posted by DXCC
When was the church established ?
It was on Pentecost, when the first members of the “church” of Christ received the “Holy Spirit”, i.e. the “Comforter” (See John 14:26, Acts 2:1-4).
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Originally Posted by DXCC
Upon what conditions were required to become a member ?
The terms and conditions are listed here:
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Joh 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Joh 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
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Eph 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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Eph 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Originally Posted by DXCC
My last question :
What dose the water mean in 1Peter 3:21 ?
1Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
DXCC
The author states that Christ suffered for the sins of the unjust to bring them to ‘god’ being put to death in the flesh and being given life by the spirit by which he went and preached to the “spirits in prison”.
To establish a parallel with “baptism”, the author argues that Noah and his family were saved from a corrupted world through water, i.e., by means of the flood waters (see Gen 6-8).
The author says that it is not this symbol of putting away the filth of the flesh that saves us [i.e. water baptism], but an appeal to ‘god’ for a good conscience through Christ's resurrection. It is an appeal to ‘god’ for a good conscience that “baptism” represents. The “baptism” that now saves us that Peter refers to is the baptism of “the spirit”. That is the “baptism” that saves us from our sins and produces a good conscience toward ‘god’ (see Mat. 3:11-12, Heb. 9:14).
Here again is the passage:
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is,eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this,now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
Being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit - speaks of Jesus' crucifixion, and His resurrection. The scripture is not speaking of baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is simply saying Jesus was made alive in the spirit.
You said, ""The author says that it is not this symbol of putting away the filth of the flesh that save us (i.e. water baptism),"
You are calling baptism a symbol, which the scripture does not say. The word symbol is not mentioned.
Peter first tells us what baptism is not.
He says baptism is not putting away the filth of the flesh.
Then he tells us what baptism is.
He says baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience.
You said, "It is an appeal to God for a good conscience that baptism represents.
The scripture does not say that baptism "represents"an appeal to God for a good conscience. It says IT IS AN APPEAL. You have added the word "represents."
You said, "The baptism that now saves us that Peter refers to is the baptism of the Spirit."
No Kids. Look at the scripture closely without your preconceived idea that it is speaking of Holy Spirit baptism. Read what it says.
"in which a few, that is,eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this,now saves you,"
Baptism corresponds to the eight persons who were brought safely through the water. This now saves you.
Holy Spirit baptism is never mentioned.
If this passage were about Holy Spirit baptism, then why in the world would Peter not have said so. Why did he even bother to bring up Noah, the ark, and water?
You did three things to this passage that I can see. You added the word "symbol," "represents," and "Holy Spirit baptism," which none can be found here. You are trying to make this passage fit your preconceived idea of Holy Spirit baptism, which it does not.
When I read this passage, I read it and interpret it exactly word for word what it says. I don't try to apply any meaning to it. I don't have to. It speaks so clearly for itself.
I'd still like for you to answer my other post. I put a lot of time into it, and I'd be interested in knowing what you think. Thanks.
In Ephesians chapter two in verses 1and 5, Paul says they were dead because of sin, but now they are alive in Christ .
In Ephesians Chapter one verse 7 - Paul says they were made alive through the blood of Christ which produced their forgiveness of sins or made alive .
They went from being in a dead state to an alive state.
The only place in scripture that explains how and when and where The Blood of Christ is applied is clearly seen in Acts 2 or the establishment of the church .
Those Jews were dead in sin but made alive in verse 41, who went through the heavenly ordained plan to be made alive. This changed their state from being dead to being alive .
The same is true in a marriage. A bride or groom is in a single sate until they go through the marriage ceremony, and only then do the change Their state form single to married. state.
DXCC
1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
We must be in Christ to be made alive.
Is there any other way to be "in Christ" other than through the waters of baptism?
2:1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodyand the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 ButGod, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses,made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
This is such a beautiful passage. It tells us HOW we are saved.
The question people must ask is WHEN are we saved? WHEN are we made alive in Christ? How does a person get "in Christ?"
If a person has an honest and open heart, he/she will search the scriptures. Get a concordance, and look at all of the "in Christ" scriptures. There is only one way to get "in Christ." And that is when we submit to to will of Jesus. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
these are notes I have collected from my preacher : James Harvey
faith only statement : we are not saved when we are baptized in water.
we are saved when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit was never commanded, it was promised.
Hence it could not be administered by men, only by Jesus.
The baptism in the Great Commission is in water, because Jesus commanded us to baptize people. this is something to obey.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred only twice - Acts 2 and 10 . It never happened again in this outward, visible and audible manner.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was never commanded. Impossible for man to perform.
Eph.4:5 there is ONE baptism - NOT 2
What was John talking about when he said that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire?
This dose not happen at conversion.
- John was referring to the coming Kingdom or the start of the New Testament Church.
-This was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.
-There will be a 'baptism ' of Fire - The Lake of Fire after judgment, which is hell.
When the Apostles received The Baptism of The Holy Spirit they received what appeared as Tongues of Fire , that came to rest on each other.
- Those 3000 baptized on Pentecost NEVER received any such phenomenon.
- The gift of the Holy Spirit was invisible , while the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was visible .
In both cases of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and 10 baptism in water was practiced.
-Peter taught , even commanded, with the presence of the visible Holy Spirit. That baptism in water was required. Why would people today claim that water baptism in not required ?
In baptism we receive the Holy Spirit. Paul reminds us in Romans 10- That if we do not have the Holy Spirit we do not belong to Christ.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a fulfillment of prophecy to prove the Apostles were God's chosen instruments.
God revealed to Peter in Acts 10 - He wanted Gentiles saved.
John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.
John 14:26 But the Counselor,the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
My point is WHEN are we saved. When exactly is our point of pardon? I believe it is when we are baptized, and that the scriptures support my belief. There is nothing in the water that is magical. It is the time that God has chosen to redeem us. It is when we die, just as He died. It is when we are buried, just as He was buried. It is when we are raised to walk in a new life, just as He was raised. Baptism is WHEN we are saved, not HOW.
Paul said God saved us in Christ before the world began. How do we reconcile this with your belief that baptism is when it happened?
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
The word "world" here is taken from the Greek word χρόνος and means "time". According to Paul, in the eternal mind and counsel of God, you and I were saved in Jesus before time began. Before either you or I were born into this world. That is a very long time ago. Most likely before you and I were water baptized...lol
Also, Jesus said the Spirit blows where and when He wills, not when we will or choose to born of the Spirit:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And, this is true of everyone that is born of the Spirit. Those who are spiritual dead to God are really not deciding spiritual things or discerning where the wind (Spirit of God) comes from or where it goes. The unregenerate are dead. Like a corpse in the morgue. Dead.
And, if as you say, we are un-regenerated (still of the flesh and spiritually dead towards God) until we've been baptized, how is it then that anything we do while in that state of being (spiritual death), such as the very act of being baptized while in that state, could be pleasing to God?
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
This would actually make baptizing the unregenerate (those of the flesh) displeasing to God. Right?
I think if we're to actually search for a marker in time, as opposed to when God sees our salvation, IOW something that we as sinners could point to and say "that's when it happened", I believe it would be when our sins were imputed to Christ while He died on the cross and His being resurrected from the grave to declare our Justification before God. That is when our salvation is "marked" in time. And that is what Paul tells us:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That is the Good News of the Gospel that we are to believe in. If you really don't believe that Good News, you'll probably search for something else.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 05-03-2011 at 10:30 AM..
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Luke 24:46 He told them, "this is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.49 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promise: but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high"
Act 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, whoever dose not believe will be condemned ( Jesus Speaking )
John 3:5 Jesus answered, " I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all you you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
DXCC
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