Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT? (prayer, priests, translate, prophets)
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Well, I guess I'm not sure what it is you're saying. If, as you say, Jesus was speaking of "water baptism" in John 3:5, then "water baptism" was essential to being born of the Spirit, including everyone who lived and died prior to Pentecost. I really don't see how you can get around this theological dilemma you've created, or at least are advocating for.
Look. Jesus tells us that everyone who is born of the Spirit is born of the Spirit in the same way:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
What I think you've done, is made an erroneous assumption that "water" in Joh 3:5 is somehow speaking of "water baptism", and with that assumption you've created (or at least believed in) a theological system that revolves around that concept.
I believe when Jesus spoke of "water", He was speaking of the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit (His own Spirit) that cleanses us with clean "water" which gives birth to a new heart and spirit within us:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
I also believe that this is the "water" that Jesus was speaking of while chastising Nicodemus, a master of Israel, for not knowing about:
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
I agree with the bolded.
Last edited by kids in america_; 05-08-2011 at 01:47 AM..
************************************************** ***************** Why do you think Peter brings up Noah in this passage? If the scripture doesn't deal with water, then why bring it up in the first place? Why doesn't Peter mention baptism with the Holy Spirit? Could it be because baptism with the Holy Spirit was NEVER commanded, but baptism with water was?
Just as the waters of the flood separated Noah's family from the world, the waters of christian baptism separate us from the world. Christian baptism separated the saved from the unsaved. That is the point of the whole passage.
The figure, pattern, or type in this verse is the salvation of Noah and his family by water. Christian baptism is the antitype, the reality, that was symbolized by Noah and his family's salvation by water. The salvation of Noah prefigures christian salvation when we are baptized in water. That is exactly what the passage is saying.
It was the water of the flood that separated Noah from those who disobeyed. It is the waters of christian baptism that separate christians from those who disobey.
The same water that bore up the ark and saved Noah and his family is the same water of baptism that buries the pentinent believer "into Christ," from which we, like Noah, rise to walk in newness of life.
It was the water of the flood that physically washed away the filth of that evil generation. It is when we are baptized in water, our sins are washed away, just as the apostle Paul had his sins washed away.
So do you see, the actual filth of the flesh was washed away in the days of Noah, but when we are baptized in water, we are not physically washed away like the people of Noah's day, but our sins, our actual moral and spiritual filth are washed away. In Noah's day, the flesh was affected, and not the conscience. Do you see what I am saying here?
You asked how that good conscience comes about. I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I will say it again. For 1500 years, historians believed and wrote that baptism was immersion in water and it was for forgiveness of sins. There is too much scriptural support to make me believe different.
John baptized in water. Jesus was baptized in water. The eunuch was baptized in water. Paul was baptized in water. Cornelius was baptized in water. Lydia was baptized in water.
"according to his mercy he saved us, throught the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)
"And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and inthe Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11)
"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of the water with the word" (Eph. 5:25-26)
"5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)
"3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (Rom. 6:3-7)
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (Col. 2:11-14)
If you choose to take the water out of baptism, that is your choice. We each have to give an account of ourselves. I'll tell you what my daughter told me on the phone last night. "Mom, I would be scared to death to not be baptized." If you're willing to take that chance, all I can say is you'd better pray you're right. Like my daughter said, "Mom, how hard is it for a person to get baptized? Would you let pride stand in your way?"
So I've given you my postition on why I believe we must be water baptized. Can you show me a single scripture that says baptism with the Holy Spirit was commanded for salvation? Can you prove to me that none of your selected scriptures are not speaking of water baptism? I say they all are unless otherwise stated in the passage.
Katie
Technically speaking, it was the ark that saved, the ark that Noah entered by faith. When you read about the flood in Genesis 7, the people were not saved by the water. They were condemned and killed by the water. The eight suls whowere in the ark were saved through the water, by the ark. Verse 20 should literally read the “eight souls were saved through water”. Many English translations render it this way, such as the NASB, AMP, and NRSV.
Technically speaking, it was the ark that saved, the ark that Noah entered by faith. When you read about the flood in Genesis 7, the people were not saved by the water. They were condemned and killed by the water. The eight suls whowere in the ark were saved through the water, by the ark. Verse 20 should literally read the “eight souls were saved through water”. Many English translations render it this way, such as the NASB, AMP, and NRSV.
Some translations say "through water," some say "by water." The point is that the water separated the eight souls from that evil generation. The water is what bore the ark up. I believe exactly what the verse says. Baptism now saves you. That is the important part. Our baptism is symbolized by the eight souls that were saved. And no matter how hard you may try, you can't take water out of this passage.
How does one know if a person has authority from God to baptize? For instance: Judas was a disciple of Christ, and I think it would be fair to assume he probably also baptized like the other disciples:
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
And, we also know that Judas was not born of the Spirit, right? And, if Judas did baptize others, by whose authority then did Judas baptize? And, were the baptisms Judas performed legitimate baptisms?
Why don't you give me scriptures that give qualifications for the baptizer, of who can and cannot baptize.
kids in america_;19057832]
Christ didn’t not send me to baptize. So my answer is, “No.”
Can you clarify? Are you saying the command of Jesus to go make disciples by baptizing them and then teaching them to obey everything He commanded does not apply to you? Are you saying that command only applied to the apostles?
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In all of Paul's epistles, the emphasis is on Spirit baptism not baptism [by water]. Paul revealed that every person that believes on Christ is immediately baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.
Where in the scriptures did Paul reveal that every person that believes on Christ is immediately baptized by the Holy Spirit? I must have missed that scripture.
Can you give me the scriptures that show the emphasis is on Spirit baptism. You say these are in all of Paul's epistles. I know of only one scripture 1 Cor. 12:13 which says, We were all baptized by one Spirit.
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None of these verses say baptism is “necessary” for “salvation”. These are just examples of people being baptized after they believe.
Can you tell me exactly at what point in the narrative of Acts 2 when the people believe?
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Acts 22:16 Arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.
You can't be saved unless you have your sins washed away.
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Yes! I have been baptized in water.
Oh, so you believe in TWO BAPTISMS. One with the Holy Spirit, one with water. That's a contradiction to what the Holy Spirit tells us in Ephesians. He says there is only ONE baptism.
And out of curiosity.......When you were baptized with the Holy Spirit, was there the sound of rushing winds? Were their tongues of fire dancing over your head? I ask because there are only two instances of HS baptism in the NT, and both were accompanied by these phenomena.
lol...I've clearly debunked your doctrine of water baptism as essential to being "born of the Spirit". Why go further?
John 3:3 Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3.Verily, verily, I say unto thee. This form of expression was often upon the lips of Jesus to give emphasis to an unusually solemn and weighty declaration, See Matt. 5:18 . It occurs twenty-four times in John.Except a man be bor again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. The term translated"again" is rendered "anew" in the Revision, which is better. It is the great doctrine, so fundamental in the Gospel, of Regeneration, a new Birth, being made a new creature, the same doctrine spoken of in chapter 1:12,13. Nicodemus, like all Jews, supposed that all who were born as children of Abraham would, as Abraham's seed, be citizens of the kingdom, but Jesus shows him that no one can be a new creature in Christ Jesus unless he is born anew. We are born naturally into the kingdom of nature, to live natural life; if we enter the kingdom of heaven , the kingdom of grace, it must be by a new birth. The doctrine that a man can bury his old sinful life, and begin a new one with the freshness of youthful hope, is foreshadowed in the Old Testament ( Isa. 1:18; Jer.31:33; Ezek.11:19; 36:26, and taught in the New Testament ( Rom. 6:8; 8:3; 12:2; 2Cor.5:17;Gal.6:15,16 . How can a man be born again when he is old? The question of Nicodemus indicates his surprise, skepticism and misapprehension of what Jesus meant.
I will continue with verse 5 -9 Later today or tonight.
DXCC
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