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Katimygirl, it seems like you don’t understand that “baptism” is used in a FIGURATIVE sense in the “bible”, not just in a LITERAL sense.
All scriptures that say "baptism" are literal water baptism unless the context tells us otherwise.
I am reposting my answers to your questions, which I spent an inordinate amount of time on, concerning your statement that Paul stopped baptizing, and that baptism isn't by water. This is the third time I've posted this.
Please respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ What do YOU think it means?
Kids, You never responded to this post. I copied it from the "simply believe" thread. I included your question in the post. Here it is. Could you please respond so we can continure our discussion? Thanks.
“Baptism” means “to dip” or “to immerse”. The word, in itself, does not indicate the element that is used in the process.
************************************************** ***
Hi Kids, Sorry it's taken me so long to answer your post. The good weather has me outdoors a lot now, and less on the computer. I will try to address post 137 and 138 together (from the 'simply believe" thread).
First, you asked me to elaborate on 1 Corinthians 1:10-17. Here's the passage.
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1. Paul is concerned about divisions at the church in Corinth.
2. Christians are quarreling.
3. Some are saying they follow Paul, some Apollos, some Cephas (Peter), some Christ.
4. Paul is glad he baptized none of them except Crispus, Gaius, Stephan.
5. Paul is glad he baptized no one else so that they can say they were baptized in his name
6. Christ did not send Paul to baptize. He sent him to preach the gospel
a. Paul is not saying baptism is not necessary for salvation.
b. Paul is not saying he will never baptize anyone ever again.
c. Paul is not saying baptism is not important.
d. Paul is not saying baptism will not be practiced anymore.
e. Paul in no way is minimizing the act of baptism.
The main idea here is that Paul does not want to see divisions in this church over who baptized who.
Paul wants no one to say they were baptized in his name.
Paul was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize. Any christian could administer baptism.
It would be just like my teaching job. Is it more important for me to spend time with the kids teaching them math, or in the work room photocopying worksheets? Let the aids do the copying, and let me do the teaching. Both jobs are necessary, but one person is better qualified to teach and one is better qualified to do the photocopying. That's how I see this passage.
If you want to read more into what this passage is saying, that is your choice. (I'm sure you will do exactly that).
Keep in mind that Paul writes in depth about baptism in many of his other writings. Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2.
Every single scripture that mentions baptism is by water unless the context says otherwise (death, fire, Moses, Spirit)
Baptism without water is grasping for straws in my opinion.
You basically ignore the historical church (see scriptures below) not to mention the Jewish customs of baptism always being in water!
There are ancient baptistries all over Jerusalem! Baptism in water was not a new concept to the Jews during Jesus time. The purpose of baptism changed under the New Covenant. From the day of Pentecost forward, all pentinent believers could now receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus commands his disciples to baptize all nations. If they do it it must be in water because the Bible says that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. Therefore the water and Spirit message in John 3:5 are two elements of one new birth.
References to baptism in water in the patristic literature/ early church is plentiful! It is extremely clear that for the first few centuries everyone was in agreement that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and was the only way to be saved.
Hermas c. 140-150 AD:
... when we went down into the water and received remission of our former sins... (Shepherd IV.iii.1) Note: Remission is simply another word for forgiveness.
Justin Martyr c. 150-165 AD
As many as believe that the things are true which are taught by us and decide to live accordingly are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting for the remission of their past sins and we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are born again (Apology 1.61) .
Then in discussing John 3:5 (a passage always associated with baptism in the early Christian literature) Justin continues:
In order that we... may obtain the remission of sins... there is pronounced in water over whom who has chosen to be born again and has repented of his sins the name of God the Father and the Lord of the universe (1.61).
In his discussion of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) he says that no one is allowed to partake of the communion except the man who "has been washed with the washing that is for remission of sins and unto a second birth and is so living as Christ has enjoined" (1.66).
i c.130-200 AD: "We have received baptism for the remission of sins... And this baptism is the seal of eternal life and new birth unto God" (Dem. 3.41f. Haer. 5.11.2).
The Creed of the Council of Nicaea 325 AD
This fourth century creed is well known. It is ironic that although it is cherished by churchgoers the world over the import of its words is frequently overlooked: ... I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins...
Naturally these affirmations do not stand on a par with the authority of scripture but they do shed light on the early Christians understanding of baptism.
Besides baptism means immersion! We are immersed in the water and the Spirit descends on us or is poured out on us and into us when we are baptized in water.
John 3 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.
Matthew 3 16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.
Acts 8 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”[37] [c] 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
1 Peter 3 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Paul said God saved us in Christ before the world began. How do we reconcile this with your belief that baptism is when it happened?
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
The word "world" here is taken from the Greek word χρόνος and means "time". According to Paul, in the eternal mind and counsel of God, you and I were saved in Jesus before time began. Before either you or I were born into this world. That is a very long time ago. Most likely before you and I were water baptized...lol
Also, Jesus said the Spirit blows where and when He wills, not when we will or choose to born of the Spirit:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And, this is true of everyone that is born of the Spirit. Those who are spiritual dead to God are really not deciding spiritual things or discerning where the wind (Spirit of God) comes from or where it goes. The unregenerate are dead. Like a corpse in the morgue. Dead.
And, if as you say, we are un-regenerated (still of the flesh and spiritually dead towards God) until we've been baptized, how is it then that anything we do while in that state of being (spiritual death), such as the very act of being baptized while in that state, could be pleasing to God?
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
This would actually make baptizing the unregenerate (those of the flesh) displeasing to God. Right?
I think if we're to actually search for a marker in time, as opposed to when God sees our salvation, IOW something that we as sinners could point to and say "that's when it happened", I believe it would be when our sins were imputed to Christ while He died on the cross and His being resurrected from the grave to declare our Justification before God. That is when our salvation is "marked" in time. And that is what Paul tells us:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That is the Good News of the Gospel that we are to believe in. If you really don't believe that Good News, you'll probably search for something else.
Yes I believe God's purpose and plan for our salvation was in place from the very beginning. However, it was not put into place until Jesus' death on the cross. God, being the all knowing God that He is, knew before we were created whether or not we would be saved. But the choice was ours, and we couldn't make it until we were old enough to hear the word and respond to the gospel. And yes, I absolutely believe in the gospel, the good news of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.
I also believe that God saves us by His grace. I have no doubt of that. That is how I was saved. The when I was saved was when I heard the gospel, believed it, repented, confessed His name, and was baptized into Christ. That's how I see it.
I have said this over and over. Each of us has to give an account of himself/herself. I choose to believe Jesus when He says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." I choose to believe Peter when he said on the day of Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I choose to believe Paul when he was baptized to have his sins washed away. So you see, it's all about the choices we make and what we choose to believe.
I am not sure where you are coming from Alabama. I don't know what your religious beliefs are. I suspect you are univeralist? Maybe evangelical? Maybe pentecostal? I am a member of the church of Christ. I think it would help us to have a better discussion if we both know where the other stands.
I don't judge whether others are saved or lost. I don't think that's my job. All I can do is show what the scriptures say, and let them fall where they may. People can choose to believe them or not.
The main idea here is that Paul does not want to see divisions in this church over who baptized who.
Okay
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Paul wants no one to say they were baptized in his name.
And he stopped “baptizing” people. Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Paul was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize. Any christian could administer baptism.
What about the so-called great commission found in Mark 16? Mark 16:16 clearly has Jesus commanding his disciples to “baptize”. Was not Paul under the great commission as well?
Here's another question that needs to be asked: If Paul was not sent to baptize, why did He baptize?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
It would be just like my teaching job. Is it more important for me to spend time with the kids teaching them math, or in the work room photocopying worksheets? Let the aids do the copying, and let me do the teaching. Both jobs are necessary, but one person is better qualified to teach and one is better qualified to do the photocopying. That's how I see this passage.
Fair enough. So you do recognize the split Paul puts between “baptism” and “the gospel”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
If you want to read more into what this passage is saying, that is your choice. (I'm sure you will do exactly that).
I am either reading too much into 1 Cor. 1:14-17 (or projecting my own feelings onto it) or you may have missed a crucial part of the passage. I think it's the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Keep in mind that Paul writes in depth about baptism in many of his other writings. Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2.
The only thing I can say is to reiterate what I've said before: you are conditioned to read into Romans 6, Galatians 3, and Colossians 2 as reference to baptism by water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Every single scripture that mentions baptism is by water unless the context says otherwise (death, fire, Moses, Spirit)
Katimy girl when the “bible” refers to "water baptism" the context always makes this clear. However if you see the word “baptism” or “baptize” alone, we need to use extreme care and caution in studying and recognizing what kind of “baptism” is being refer to in the passage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Baptism without water is grasping for straws in my opinion.
You basically ignore the historical church (see scriptures below) not to mention the Jewish customs of baptism always being in water!
There are ancient baptistries all over Jerusalem! Baptism in water was not a new concept to the Jews during Jesus time. The purpose of baptism changed under the New Covenant. From the day of Pentecost forward, all pentinent believers could now receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus commands his disciples to baptize all nations. If they do it it must be in water because the Bible says that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. Therefore the water and Spirit message in John 3:5 are two elements of one new birth.
References to baptism in water in the patristic literature/ early church is plentiful! It is extremely clear that for the first few centuries everyone was in agreement that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and was the only way to be saved.
Hermas c. 140-150 AD: ... when we went down into the water and received remission of our former sins... (Shepherd IV.iii.1) Note: Remission is simply another word for forgiveness.
Justin Martyr c. 150-165 AD As many as believe that the things are true which are taught by us and decide to live accordingly are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting for the remission of their past sins and we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are born again (Apology 1.61) .
Then in discussing John 3:5 (a passage always associated with baptism in the early Christian literature) Justin continues:
In order that we... may obtain the remission of sins... there is pronounced in water over whom who has chosen to be born again and has repented of his sins the name of God the Father and the Lord of the universe (1.61).
In his discussion of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) he says that no one is allowed to partake of the communion except the man who "has been washed with the washing that is for remission of sins and unto a second birth and is so living as Christ has enjoined" (1.66).
i c.130-200 AD: "We have received baptism for the remission of sins... And this baptism is the seal of eternal life and new birth unto God" (Dem. 3.41f. Haer. 5.11.2).
The Creed of the Council of Nicaea 325 AD This fourth century creed is well known. It is ironic that although it is cherished by churchgoers the world over the import of its words is frequently overlooked: ... I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins...
Naturally these affirmations do not stand on a par with the authority of scripture but they do shed light on the early Christians understanding of baptism.
Quite simply, history of the church is entirely fallible. Again I am not arguing from people's interpretation. Instead, I am arguing from the text itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Besides baptism means immersion! We are immersed in the water and the Spirit descends on us or is poured out on us and into us when we are baptized in water.
Katie
Cornelius, the Roman centurion, received the “Holy Spirit” before he was commanded to be baptized in water. How do you explain?
Last edited by kids in america_; 05-04-2011 at 08:19 AM..
Twin, we agree that we are saved by the gospel. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. I just don't believe it stops there. We cannot ignore all of the baptism scriptures, nor can we ignore 1500 years of history, which say baptism was done for forgiveness of sins. Not to mention that throughout the entire Bible, faith is always accompanied by actions of obedience.........over and over.
No one, including myself, has ever said that we are not saved by grace. That is how we are saved. I believe we get that grace when we obey the commands of Jesus.
My understanding of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is that it is more than unbelief.
Jesus deals with this subject in Matthew 12 and Mark 3. Matthew 12 does not give us the answer specifically, but Mark does. Jesus performed miracles to prove He is the Son of God (John 20:30-31). No one who witnessed these miracles could deny them. They could attribute them to the power of Satan or the power of God. If they attributed the miracles to God they would have to say Jesus is from God. The Scribes chose to attribute them to Satan, rejecting Christ's deity; therefore, rejecting the only means of forgiveness. That was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
The nearest thing to blasphemy of the Spirit today would be to read the New Testament and say, "I believe Jesus performed these miracles, but I believe He did them because He had an unclean spirit." That is exactly what Mark said blasphemy against the Spirit is. "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" --- Because they said, "He has an unclean spirit" (Mark 3:29-30)
I think you are assuming a lot when you say, "This is why Jesus spoke Mark 16:16 the way he did." You don't know why Jesus spoke the way He did any more than I do.
I just take His words at face value. I don't try to read anything into them. I do believe Mark 16:16 belongs in the Bible. There are documents which were written long before the two questionable manuscripts that leave out the end of Mark's gospel, and these documents make reference to Mark 16:16.
The great commission of Matthew 28 supports Mark 16. Jesus told his apostles to make disciples by baptizing them. Peter also reaffirmed this on the day of Pentecost. "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Paul, himself, was baptized to have his sins washed away (Acts 22:16).
I've said it all along, we each have to give an account of ourselves. You can choose to take these scriptures just as they are written, or you can try to apply a different meaning to them other than what they actually say. It's your choice. I choose to read and take them literally exactly as written.
Katie
Katie,
There is no doubt that we agree on several issues you're talking about in this OP... being saved by grace, all of the baptism scriptures which say baptism was done for forgiveness of sins, the great commission of Matthew 28 supports Mark 16
The reason I remarked about the latter half of Mark 16:16 is because of the many other passages which speak that ultimately a person is damned because only of unbelief.
I believe you will not find any scriptures that will say that one is damned for believing while not being baptized. There are at times when situations prevent a person from being baptised. Case in point is the crimnal on the cross..I do not think those of us who are pro-baptism saving minded will argue he was not saved. There is no scriptural reference of him having been done so prior to his crucifixion.
I totally agree with your basic premise ** unless other scriptures speak otherwise** " I chose to read and take them literally exactly as written."
Hi Kids,
You are right to look at various translations. I'm going to post them from biblos.com, a really good site to check out if you haven't already. It's got paralell translations, commentaries, and lexicons.
I am quite familiar with the website but thanks for the recommendation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
The general idea I am getting here is that the water symbolizes baptism which now saves you. The water is the symbol here. Water is a picture of baptism. Baptism is not the symbol, the water is.
::scratches head::
The translation in verse 21 from the NASB renders it “corresponding to that, baptismnow saves you…” GW translation has “baptism, which is likethat…” The KJV reads it “like figure whereunto [even] baptism…” BIBE translates it as “… And baptism, of which this is an image”. The DRV render it as “… baptism being of the like form…” If you want to put these translations and the others together: “baptism” [i.e., baptism with water], then, is a figure, a like form, or image of something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
I think your real argument is that baptism in this passage is speaking of baptism with the Holy Spirit , and not with water. Am I right? You believe baptism with the Holy Spirit saves. Let me know if I'm wrong on this.
Yes.
Here’s my reading of 1 Peter 3:21:
Quote:
“Baptism [of the Spirit], the counterpart of that, saves you to-day (not the mere washing of dirt from the flesh but as an appeal to ‘god’ for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
No matter how hard you try, you can't take water out of this passage. I have addressed "water baptism" in my other post to you.
Katie
Again the “baptism” mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21 is not one dealing with water, but the answer of a good conscience toward ‘god’ that save us. The author is saying that “baptism” is “not as a removal of dirt from the body, but that "baptism" is the answer of a good conscience toward ‘god’. What do you think the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” means? Also I'll ask the question again: How does that good conscience toward ‘god’ come about?
Katie,
There is no doubt that we agree on several issues you're talking about in this OP... being saved by grace, all of the baptism scriptures which say baptism was done for forgiveness of sins, the great commission of Matthew 28 supports Mark 16
The reason I remarked about the latter half of Mark 16:16 is because of the many other passages which speak that ultimately a person is damned because only of unbelief.
I believe you will not find any scriptures that will say that one is damned for believing while not being baptized. There are at times when situations prevent a person from being baptised. Case in point is the crimnal on the cross..I do not think those of us who are pro-baptism saving minded will argue he was not saved. There is no scriptural reference of him having been done so prior to his crucifixion.
I totally agree with your basic premise ** unless other scriptures speak otherwise** " I chose to read and take them literally exactly as written."
According to Romans 6:3-6 Baptism represents being unified with Christ in His Death , Burial , and Resurrection.
The problem with the thief on the Cross when Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise, is Jesus was still alive. Christ had not yet died or been buried, so He sure had not risen yet either.
Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts 2 . After Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to Heaven. (Acts 2:38)
The thief on the Cross was still under the Old Covenant ( or on the Old Testament side of the Cross ) and therefor not subject to baptism. The thief was saved like anyone else under Old Covenant.
But besides that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive people of their sins. Mark 2:9-12 Matthew 9:6
Hebrews 9:16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it. 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
What about the so-called great commission found in Mark 16? Mark 16:16 clearly has Jesus commanding his disciples to “baptize”. Was not Paul under the great commission as well?
Here's another question that needs to be asked: If Paul was not sent to baptize, why did He baptize?
Fair enough. So you do recognize the split Paul puts between “baptism” and “the gospel”?
I am either reading too much into 1 Cor. 1:14-17 (or projecting my own feelings onto it) or you may have missed a crucial part of the passage. I think it's the latter.
The only thing I can say is to reiterate what I've said before: you are conditioned to read into Romans 6, Galatians 3, and Colossians 2 as reference to baptism by water.
Katimy girl when the “bible” refers to "water baptism" the context always makes this clear. However if you see the word “baptism” or “baptize” alone, we need to use extreme care and caution in studying and recognizing what kind of “baptism” is being refer to in the passage.
Quite simply, history of the church is entirely fallible. Again I am not arguing from people's interpretation. Instead, I am arguing from the text itself.
Cornelius, the Roman centurion, received the “Holy Spirit” before he was commanded to be baptized in water. How do you explain?
The scripture does not say Paul stopped baptizing. It doesn't say he continued either. Division was a specific problem addressed to a specific group of christians, the Corinthians. Do we know for sure that Paul didn't continue to baptize wherever he went? There is no proof either way. So to use this passage to teach that Paul stopped baptizing is a false teaching because there is no proof. You may think it implies it, but that doesn't make it true.
I'm sure we can agree that Paul said he was glad he didn't baptize anyone else that he could remember other than the three mentioned because he did not want people to be able to say, "I follow Paul." Remember, there are divisions in the church over this.
Paul said he was sent to preach not to baptize. Preaching was his main job, what Jesus had called him to do. Paul had many christian companions who could have taken care of the baptizing detail. Is Paul saying baptism is not important or necessary? You can imply that if you choose, but you cannot prove it with scripture.
I'll say it again. Paul was sent to preach. That was his main job. Anyone could baptize. But in no way does Paul ever minimize the importance or necessity of baptism.
I found your comment about "the so called great commission" disturbing. You don't believe Jesus gave that commission? Even if you don't want to accept Mark 16, Jesus reaffirms it in Matthew 28. Be careful of those kinds of comments Kids. I don't think you meant it the way it looks, but it did look pretty bad (the so called great commission?). It jumped right out at me. Yikes! Those are Jesus' words. Be careful.
Yes Paul was under the great commission, just as you and I are. Paul and all of the apostles baptized because that's what they were told to do. Does this mean Paul disobeyed Jesus' command? Does this mean that every single person he and the other apostles preached the gospel to, they personally baptized? I doubt it. Does this mean that every single christian must baptize? I don't think so. I think the main idea of the great commission was to make disciples. We are to teach the gospel, and either we or some other christian will do the baptizing. I have personally never baptized anyone. Does that mean I am not following Jesus' great commission? I don't believe that. You are putting way too much emphasis on the "baptizer." The one that does the baptizing is not important. All they do is lower the person into the water, and raise them up from it. God does ALL of the work. The important thing is that people must be baptized to be saved, and Paul never, ever minimized its importance.
Every single scripture that talks about baptism is literal water baptism unless the context tells us different (suffering, Moses, Holy Spirit). I said it several times in my post that history is not inspired by the Holy Spirit, but you cannot deny 1500 years of history when it consistently 100% of the time says baptism was immersion in water for the forgiveness of sins. I could understand if their were various opinions about it, but there were not. EVERYONE agreed that baptism was immersion in water, and it was for remission of sins. You might as well deny the Civil War ever took place if you deny early church history.
Katie,
There is no doubt that we agree on several issues you're talking about in this OP... being saved by grace, all of the baptism scriptures which say baptism was done for forgiveness of sins, the great commission of Matthew 28 supports Mark 16
The reason I remarked about the latter half of Mark 16:16 is because of the many other passages which speak that ultimately a person is damned because only of unbelief.
I believe you will not find any scriptures that will say that one is damned for believing while not being baptized. There are at times when situations prevent a person from being baptised. Case in point is the crimnal on the cross..I do not think those of us who are pro-baptism saving minded will argue he was not saved. There is no scriptural reference of him having been done so prior to his crucifixion.
I totally agree with your basic premise ** unless other scriptures speak otherwise** " I chose to read and take them literally exactly as written."
I really appreciate your comments. You are right. I've never seen a scripture that says a person will be condemned for believing while not being baptized. There is no such scripture. But it's pretty hard to deny that the only way to be "in Christ" is through baptism. It is at that time we are "made alive in Christ." It's hard to not draw the conclusion that if you're not "in Christ" then you are not saved. But hey, I am not the judge here. I've got enough to do just keeping myself on the right track without judging other people.
Honestly, I hate nothing more than when someone gives me a hypothetical, or even a true story of a loved one who was such a good person, full of good works, and was well on the way to becoming a christian, when suddenly they took to their death bed. People get mad when I tell them, I do not have the answers. I am not God. I don't know how God will deal with people like that. He is the judge, not me. Were it up to me, people like that would be saved, but I'm not the one who died on the cross, so how can I make the call? All I can do is present the scriptures and let them fall where they may. People can either accept or reject them, and hopefully, they won't wait until they're on their death bed.
The only think I can say about the thief on the cross is that God had the authority to forgive anyone's sins. He chose to forgive the thief in that moment. Was the thief baptized? The scriptures don't tell us, but that doesn't mean he wasn't. Afterall, multitudes came to John and were baptized. But we can't prove it either way. The thief on the cross does seem to be a favorite of the "faith only" folks though.
All I know is this. I, me personally, have no excuse. I have heard the word, and I have obeyed it. I can only speak for me. I made my choice to follow Jesus. I was baptized for the forgiveness of my sins. I try hard to be the person He wants me to be.
On a personal note.........my daughter called last night. She was baptized when she was 15 years old. When she got away from home, she moved south, and got involved with a group, different from the church of Christ, which she'd been raised in. She told me she got baptized again. I'm not sure why she did that, but one thing she did say. "I can't understand how anyone would dare to take the chance of not being baptized." She said she would be scared to death if she were not baptized. She said she would never want to leave a single stone left unturned, and she would do anything Jesus said to do. No arguments. That makes pretty good sense to me.
Thanks again for your comments. I am glad we agree on so many things, especially reading and taking the scriptures for exactly what they say. So many people try to change the word order, or try to translate the Greek to make it say what they want it to say.
The translation in verse 21 from the NASB renders it “corresponding to that, baptismnow saves you…” GW translation has “baptism, which is likethat…” The KJV reads it “like figure whereunto [even] baptism…” BIBE translates it as “… And baptism, of which this is an image”. The DRV render it as “… baptism being of the like form…” If you want to put these translations and the others together: “baptism” [i.e., baptism with water], then, is a figure, a like form, or image of something.
Yes.
Here’s my reading of 1 Peter 3:21:
Again the “baptism” mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21 is not one dealing with water, but the answer of a good conscience toward ‘god’ that save us. The author is saying that “baptism” is “not as a removal of dirt from the body, but that "baptism" is the answer of a good conscience toward ‘god’. What do you think the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” means? Also I'll ask the question again: How does that good conscience toward ‘god’ come about?
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Why do you think Peter brings up Noah in this passage? If the scripture doesn't deal with water, then why bring it up in the first place? Why doesn't Peter mention baptism with the Holy Spirit? Could it be because baptism with the Holy Spirit was NEVER commanded, but baptism with water was?
Just as the waters of the flood separated Noah's family from the world, the waters of christian baptism separate us from the world. Christian baptism separated the saved from the unsaved. That is the point of the whole passage.
The figure, pattern, or type in this verse is the salvation of Noah and his family by water. Christian baptism is the antitype, the reality, that was symbolized by Noah and his family's salvation by water. The salvation of Noah prefigures christian salvation when we are baptized in water. That is exactly what the passage is saying.
It was the water of the flood that separated Noah from those who disobeyed. It is the waters of christian baptism that separate christians from those who disobey.
The same water that bore up the ark and saved Noah and his family is the same water of baptism that buries the pentinent believer "into Christ," from which we, like Noah, rise to walk in newness of life.
It was the water of the flood that physically washed away the filth of that evil generation. It is when we are baptized in water, our sins are washed away, just as the apostle Paul had his sins washed away.
So do you see, the actual filth of the flesh was washed away in the days of Noah, but when we are baptized in water, we are not physically washed away like the people of Noah's day, but our sins, our actual moral and spiritual filth are washed away. In Noah's day, the flesh was affected, and not the conscience. Do you see what I am saying here?
You asked how that good conscience comes about. I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I will say it again. For 1500 years, historians believed and wrote that baptism was immersion in water and it was for forgiveness of sins. There is too much scriptural support to make me believe different.
John baptized in water. Jesus was baptized in water. The eunuch was baptized in water. Paul was baptized in water. Cornelius was baptized in water. Lydia was baptized in water.
"according to his mercy he saved us, throught the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)
"And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and inthe Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11)
"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of the water with the word" (Eph. 5:25-26)
"5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)
"3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (Rom. 6:3-7)
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (Col. 2:11-14)
If you choose to take the water out of baptism, that is your choice. We each have to give an account of ourselves. I'll tell you what my daughter told me on the phone last night. "Mom, I would be scared to death to not be baptized." If you're willing to take that chance, all I can say is you'd better pray you're right. Like my daughter said, "Mom, how hard is it for a person to get baptized? Would you let pride stand in your way?"
So I've given you my postition on why I believe we must be water baptized. Can you show me a single scripture that says baptism with the Holy Spirit was commanded for salvation? Can you prove to me that none of your selected scriptures are not speaking of water baptism? I say they all are unless otherwise stated in the passage.
Why was Peter sent to Cornelius? Hear what the scripture says.
Acts 11: 13 ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
So Peter is called to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his household. And right in the middle of his preaching..............
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tonguesand praising God.
Does it tell us anywhere in this passage that Cornelius has been saved? I agree, he was baptized with the Holy Spirit, but salvation is never mentioned. So what was the purpose of his being baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Can you show me anywhere in the scriptures that Holy Spirit baptism was commanded for salvation?
There are only two instances in the New Testament that baptism with the holy Spirit takes place. It is only named in these two instances Notice I said "named." There is not one single other case that can be scripturally named baptism with the Holy Spirit other than the apostles on the day of Pentecost, and at the house of Cornelius. Not the Samaritans, and not the Ephesians. Yes they did receive the Holy Spirit, but notice, it is not say "Holy Spirit baptism." The Samaritans and Ephesians were given the gift or ability to speak in tongues.
So why was Cornelius baptized with the Holy Spirit? Let's let the scriptures tell us.
“So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” "Who was I to think that I could stand in God's way?"
Without that miracle, Peter never would have accepted that God now also accepted the Gentiles.
Look at what Peter says after Cornelius has been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ"
Peter didn't ask Cornelius if he wanted to be baptized. He ORDEREDhim to be baptized. WHY???? Peter had come to Cornelius to preach the gospel. "He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’ The scriptures tell us that faith comes by hearing the word. Cornelius believed the words he heard from Peter. Peter saw a VISIBLE sign that Cornelius had indeed been baptized with the Holy Spirit just as he and the apostles had been on the day of Pentecost. But do you see any mention of salvation at this point? NO, you do not. That is because Cornelius must be saved just as every other christian is saved, and that is when he/she is water baptized. He must obey the gospel.
Do you know of any other instance in the Bible or in modern history when someone has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, and flames of fire danced above their heads, or you heard the sound of mighty rushing wind?
There are many instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit, and it was for a reason. It was to EMPOWER them to confirm the word of God with miracles, signs and wonders.
The purpose for Holy Spirit baptism has been fulfilled. The purpose was to empower the people to spread the gospel, to confirm the word. We now have the confirmed word of God within the Bible. That's all we need. We do not need any new revelations. No reason for tongues, no reason for prophesy. We have His complete will, so there is no need for spiritual gifts anymore.
Does the Holy Spirit play a part in our baptism? He absolutely does. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all part of our baptism. We are saved by God's mercy and the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. If you want to say we are baptized with the Holy Spirit in that sense, then I agree. But in no way are we baptized with the Holy Spirit the way the apostles or Cornelius was. Those were two very unique incidences, and its happening is only named twice in the scriptures.
One faith, one baptism, and that is literal water baptism when our sins are forgiven and we receive the gift, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
So I ask you my dear Kids, show me a scripture that says baptism with the Holy Spirit was a command for salvation. Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." That is the great commission, and it was to be carried out by human beings, therefore, it had to be baptism in water, because only Jesus could baptize with the Holy Spirit. Peter did exactly what Jesus commanded him to do at the house of Cornelius. He preached the gospel. Those who heard the word believed and were baptized.
Did you know that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is mentioned only six times in the Bible? Four times in the gospels, once on the day of Pentecost, and once at the house of Cornelius. 1 Corinthians 12:13 could possibly, maybe, with a stretch, be included as a seventh. So show me an instance other than the abovementioned where people get baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Katie
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