Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT? (blood, Matthew, baptism, testament)

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by DXCC

The thief on the Cross was still under the Old Covenant ( or on the Old Testament side of the Cross ) and therefor not subject to baptism. The thief was saved like anyone else under Old Covenant.

Are you saying that "baptism" in Joh 3:5 does not refer to "water baptism", seeing that Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus "on the OT side of the cross", as you say?

[MissKate12]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

My understanding of what Baptism does is that it doesn't represent anything. Christ's love for the church has more than a "representation" concept to it. (Ephesians 5:25-26)

As far as the whole line of thinking that the thief was "still under the Old Covenant .... therefor not subject to baptism" would not hold up then against all the prior references to baptism before his crucifixion.

As advice was given before ... people should look closely at Mark 16:16, John 3:36 and others.

Damnation is based on a person's rejection of God, nothing else. That has always been the standard in both covenants.

Hi Twin, You don't see how our baptism is representative of Jesus'death, burial and resurrection? I mean when we are baptized, we are buried with Christ. We die to sin. We are raised to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-5

Could you elaborate on your comment about Christ's love for the church being more representative? I'm not disagreeing. I'm interested in hearing more.

While you're looking at Mk 16:16 and John 3:36, look at Lk 7:29-30. I'd like your take on that.

I'm not disagreeing with you about damnation being due to rejection of God. But don't you feel that unbelief and disobedience fall into the rejection category?

Katie

[MissKate12]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

I've read a number of your posts regarding your belief that a person cannot be regenerated to life by the Spirit apart from being water baptized.

If this is so, how do you understand Joh 1:13?:

Joh 1:13 who--not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but--of God were begotten.

The implication here is that neither the will of the flesh (the one who wills to be water baptized) nor the will of man (the one who administers water baptism) plays any part or roll in our regeneration. IOW, according to Joh 1:13, regeneration is accomplished by God alone. Purely being an act of monergism by the Spirit, rather than synergism.

How then are we to understand this if man's will in being water baptized plays apart in his regeneration?

Here is an article that discusses the differences between monergism and synergism with regards to regeneration of the Spirit:

Two Views of Regeneration by John Hendryx

Hi Alabama,

If you back up to verse 11, you will note that John says, "He came to his own, and those who were his own did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name.

Sounds like a choice people make to accept or reject, obey or disobey Jesus. You are trying to take free will out of the picture.

Verse 13 is simply saying we are born of God. He does the work. We choose to submit to his will or reject him.

What do you think Luke 7:29-30 is saying? What's your take on that passage?

Katie

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Hi Alabama,

If you back up to verse 11, you will note that John says, "He came to his own, and those who were his own did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name.

Sounds like a choice people make to accept or reject, obey or disobey Jesus. You are trying to take free will out of the picture.

Verse 13 is simply saying we are born of God. He does the work. We choose to submit to his will or reject him.

What do you think Luke 7:29-30 is saying? What's your take on that passage?

Katie

Let's go back to John 1:12 for just a moment. Scripture tells us that they "received" Christ not by their own will or desire to receive Him, but rather by the exclusive work of the Spirit acting upon them. That is what the next verse 13 tells us when read it within it's context.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The word "receive" in verse 12 does not necessarily imply the act of "willing" or even "wanting" that which is being received. The natural man (the flesh) is at enmity with God and wants no part of receiving Christ. Nor can it unless a new heart (or spirit) is created within. The natural man does not want the grace of God or to be united with Christ. This enemity must first be removed through regeneration.

Also, for example, the word translated as "receive", taken from the Greek word ληψονται, can be used negatively of those who "receive" condemnation, as well:

Mar 12:40 who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; these will "receive" greater condemnation.

Do you see how that works? Something can be received without necessarily wanting or desiring what is being "received".

Regarding Luke 7:29: It's clear that the Pharisees and the lawyers, who rejected John's baptism, were carnal minded and still of the flesh. They demonstrated that they were still at enmity towards Christ and God, through there rejection.

Those who were baptized demonstrated the change that had already taken place within. They were not being baptized in-order to make the change happen. Their baptism testified to the Spirits work of grace and faith within.

Even their faith is a fruit of the Spirit's work within:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Do you see this also?

[kids in america_]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

First of all, I want to tell you that you are right. The scriptures do not call Jesus' command to make disciples and baptize "the great commission." It's a habit I've gotten into only because when you say great commission, everybody knows what you're talking about. Not a good excuse, and in the future, I will be careful not to say it. So thanks for bringing that to my attention.

No problem

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

I have no clue about Paul circumcising. I'll research it.

Research…? Yeah, you should.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

I believe Paul baptized for the same reason any other christian does: because it was what Jesus commanded us to do.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

"18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

But Paul said Jesus did not ‘send’him to “baptize”. Why would Paul make a statement like that? As the verses cited above show, Jesus ‘sent’ the twelve disciples to baptize. The twelve could have never made a statement like that. It seems to me that the most logical conclusion one can draw from this is that Paul's commission was different from the twelve disciples. It seems like Paul claimed a different commission from the resurrected Jesus, separate from “the Great Commission”.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

My question to you is, do you make disciples and baptize them?

Christ didn’t not send me to baptize. So my answer is, “No.”

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Hypothetical situation: Paul preaches to a group of 50 Gentiles. Forty accept the message and want to be baptized. If Paul doesn't baptize every single one of the forty, has he disobeyed Jesus? Not IMHO, and I doubt you'd think so either. As I said to you in my last post, I preach the gospel to people. When they accept the message, the preacher at the congregation where I worship baptizes the person. Does that mean I disobeyed the command of Jesus. Honestly, I think this is a silly point.

Sorry, I don't deal in hypothetical scenarios, if it really happened, I would discuss it.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Yes Paul makes the distinction between baptism and preaching the gospel. They are two completely different actions, but in no way does this minimize baptism. I kind of think we've gone over this already.

I think we first need to agree on what the gospel message is. The following passage written by Paul defines the gospel.

1 Cor. 15: "1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day"

I think we can agree that the gospel message is that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and he was raised. But notice that Paul is writing to christians, people who have already been saved/baptized.

1 Cor. 1: 2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people,

The “bible” teaches we are “sanctified” (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the word of ‘god’, which word is Jesus Christ and his blood (See Joh 17:17, Eph 5:26-27, Rev 1:5).
The ordinance of baptism has nothing to do with neither sanctification nor salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 TEACHING US THAT [grace teaches us?], denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Baptism is conspicuously absent from these text.

Katimygirl "salvation" is by "grace" through "faith". The above verses give you some insight on how “grace” and “faith” operates.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

As a contrast, read Peter's gospel message in Acts 2.

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Baptism is not the gospel message. The death, burial, and ressurrection of Jesus is the gospel message.

Peter doesn't mention baptism until the people are pierced to the heart and ask him what they should do.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When the people OBEY THE GOSPEL, they are added to the church/kingdom.

47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

In all of Paul's epistles, he is writing to christians. Christians are baptized people. Look at what he says in Romans 6.

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

and Colossians 2

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

and Galatians 3

27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

The gospel message is the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus.
Obeying the gospel is when you are buried with Him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead, we too may have a new life.

Do you see the difference between the gospel message and obeying the gospel?

In all of Paul's epistles, the emphasis is on Spirit baptism not baptism [by water]. Paul revealed that every person that believes on Christ is immediately baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized INTO one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink INTO one Spirit.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

As I noted earlier, Paul said that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach. It is also interesting to note that “water baptism” is never mentioned in Christ's “commission” to Paul (See Acts 26:16-18).

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Here you go.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ananias to Paul: 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

None of these verses say baptism is “necessary” for “salvation”. These are just examples of people being baptized after they believe.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

No I cannot give you a single scripture that says you are condemned if you don't get baptized. But I can tell you what will happen if you don't obey the gospel.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

O K

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

an you give me a single scripture that says baptism with the Holy Spirit is for salvation?

What is the “holy spirit”? I know we are working with different concepts.

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Now Kids, please tell me you have been baptized in water. I'm going to feel very badly if you haven't been.

Your Buddy,
Katie

Yes! I have been baptized in water.

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Are you saying that "baptism" in Joh 3:5 does not refer to "water baptism", seeing that Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus "on the OT side of the cross", as you say?

No I am not saying that at all about about John 3:5 -

But your missing the point here !

Lets just look at John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth,no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Notice what Jesus said ? He is telling Nicodemus how to enter the kingdom of God. No where dose it say anything about Nicodemus being saved that day .

Matthew 9:1-8 Jesus had the authority to forgive sin .


No# 1 The New Covenant had not been ushered in yet. So There fore the the thief was in the Old Testament side of the cross. As well as Nicodemus


Now the question to you is this AlabamaStorm . Do you think Nicodemus became a immersed believer in Jesus Christ - According to Acts 2:38 ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, " I tell you the truth , no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The consensus of Bible scholars, in all ages, establishes the fact that baptism is the act referred to by the phrase " born of water"
or "born again"

Now let us go to the next verse Matthew 16:18-19

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Luke 24:46 He told them, "This is what is written; The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

So everyone read Acts 2 : But I will tell you that on the day of Pentecost Peter was the lead spokesman and Preached the gospel message and what the people must do to be forgiven of their sins. Peter turned the KEY and open the door to the Kingdom and the church of Christ was established . The New Covenant was ushered in. The door has been open 2000 years if you except his message.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized everyone of you , in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.If God saves men who are not obedient to His word, He honors them more than the obedient and therefore becomes a respecter of person.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak:"I now realize how true it is that God dose not show favoritism.-NIV-

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth,and said, Of a truth I perceive God is no respecter of person -KJ-

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever dose not believe will be condemned. ( Jesus Speaking )

Acts 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized, everyone of you , in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

To cut a verse in Half to fit your belief is at your own destruction. To omit a verse is doing the same thing. God is not a God of confusion.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

DXCC

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

There are no apostles today.

Well, actually, there are , but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with my question since I don't believe that a person must be an Apostle in order to perform baptisms. After all, John the Baptist wasn't an Apostle.

Even when there were, disciples also did the baptizing, i.e. John's disciples, Jesus' disciples, the seven who were chosen....Philip, Steven, and the others. I see nothing in the scriptures that say anything about qualifications to be a baptizer.

Yes, quite a few people were baptizing, but no one was baptizing without having been given the authority to do so.

Jesus commanded us to make disciples by baptizing them, then teaching them to observe all He had commanded. Jesus gave all of us authority to baptize. Not only did He give us authority to baptize, He commanded it.

Since you obviously recognize that authority is necessary, then, could you cite a few verses for me, to show me where He gave everyone who felt like baptizing the authority they needed?

So yes, any christian may baptize. IMHO, I see no reason to place any importance on the baptizer. They have no role other than lowering and raising the believer from the water.

If the baptizer has no role other than lowering and raising the believer from the water, why did you say that Jesus gave all of the us authority to baptize?

Jesus specifically sought out John to baptize Him, as did many others. Surely He could have found someone else willing to lower him into the water. So why did He go to John as opposed to someone else? It was because John held the priesthood of Aaron, which gave him the divine authority to perform this sacred ritual in God's name. John, obviously, was not the only person who held this authority, but the baptism by water for the remission of sins is referred to as John's baptism or the baptism of John so often throughout the New Testament that it can hardly be ignored that if not performed properly and with the God-given authority, the person doing the baptizing really hasn't done anything other than lowering a person into the water. Lowering someone into water doesn't do much of anything except get him wet. Baptizing that person, on the other hand, is a required ordinance (or sacrament) sanctioned by God and approved of by God. Consequently, it must be done by someone who holds the authority given by God.

Likewise, the scriptures describe how the Apostles conferred the Gift of the Holy Ghost upon people who had previously received "John's Baptism." They held greater priesthood authority than John did, which is why he was not also laying his hands upon the heads of those he had baptized to give them the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Just as water has no inate power to cleanse a person from sin, hands have no inate power to give someone the Holy Ghost. These rituals are done by men, acting as God's agents, using His power.

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

My understanding of what Baptism does is that it doesn't represent anything. Christ's love for the church has more than a "representation" concept to it. (Ephesians 5:25-26)

As far as the whole line of thinking that the thief was "still under the Old Covenant .... therefor not subject to baptism" would not hold up then against all the prior references to baptism before his crucifixion.

As advice was given before ... people should look closely at Mark 16:16, John 3:36 and others.

Damnation is based on a person's rejection of God, nothing else. That has always been the standard in both covenants.

The Old Covenant was entered by a birth of Flesh. The New Covenant is entered by a birth of water and Spirit.

If the two are identical, why did Jesus deny membership in the second to the Jews? They were all members of the first ? (Acts 2:38)

Again remember there is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Jesus said to Nicodemus how to enter the kingdom of God.

look at my above post to Alabama .

When you reject Mark 16:16 Matthew 28:19 Acts 2:38 you are rejecting God.

When you are immersed this is the point your sins are forgiven this is the point at which the blood of Christ is applied to your sins . This is what God chose you to do . THIS WAS NOT MY IDEA NOR KATIE OR ANY OTHER PERSON ON EARTH. It was God's plan !!!!!!! This is how Jesus commands us to enter His kingdom His Church !!! Mark 16:16 Matthew 28:18-20
John 3:3 John 3:5 Acts 2:28

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

DXCC

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by DXCC

Salvation Made Simple by James Harvey

In Ephesians chapter two in verses 1and 5, Paul says they were dead because of sin, but now they are alive in Christ .
In Ephesians Chapter one verse 7 - Paul says they were made alive through the blood of Christ which produced their forgiveness of sins or made alive .
They went from being in a dead state to an alive state.

The only place in scripture that explains how and when and where The Blood of Christ is applied is clearly seen in Acts 2 or the establishment of the church .

Those Jews were dead in sin but made alive in verse 41, who went through the heavenly ordained plan to be made alive. This changed their state from being dead to being alive .

The same is true in a marriage. A bride or groom is in a single sate until they go through the marriage ceremony, and only then do the change Their state form single to married. state.

DXCC

James Harvey is a preacher and has studied the Bible for over 35 years. He was a elder of Christian church for many years and been a preacher for over 15 at the Christian church I attend. I do not think this letter is that hard to understand.

DXCC

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by DXCC

No I am not saying that at all about about John 3:5...

Well, I guess I'm not sure what it is you're saying. If, as you say, Jesus was speaking of "water baptism" in John 3:5, then "water baptism" was essential to being born of the Spirit, including everyone who lived and died prior to Pentecost. I really don't see how you can get around this theological dilemma you've created, or at least are advocating for.

Look. Jesus tells us that everyone who is born of the Spirit is born of the Spirit in the same way:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What I think you've done, is made an erroneous assumption that "water" in Joh 3:5 is somehow speaking of "water baptism", and with that assumption you've created (or at least believed in) a theological system that revolves around that concept.

I believe when Jesus spoke of "water", He was speaking of the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit (His own Spirit) that cleanses us with clean "water" which gives birth to a new heart and spirit within us:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I also believe that this is the "water" that Jesus was speaking of while chastising Nicodemus, a master of Israel, for not knowing about:

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?