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I remember how important it was for me in the past to convince myself that somehow only Christians were capable of "real" love/good because to think otherwise would mean that there was something fishy about the doctrines I'd been taught... the whole house of cards might come tumbling down.
But God/love is powerful enough to work in and change people's lives and hearts without them having to intellectually grasp whatever concepts Christians think have to be grasped.
Shoot, some of the time I still have sincere doubts that God even exists, and most of the time I can't help but think that the stories of Jesus are just that ... stories (good ones, with a lot of symbolic truth, but stories nonetheless). Intellectually, I sometimes find the sea of contradictory (and self-contradicting) Christian doctrines a difficult thing to navigate.
And yet, through all the doubts, I still keep coming back to an underlying trust that God/Love is at work within me and that isn't dependent on my mental ability to make all the pieces fit. Thank God for that.
But I am constantly bombarded by Christians saying that I have to have the "correct knowledge" or else I have no business trusting God because he doesn't approve of me and I most certainly am not experiencing God's love at work within me and, of course, if I don't figure things out before I die, I never will experience it.
If Christians had any idea just how much their doctrine-pushing discourages others, I wonder if they would still insist on pushing them? Would they be willing to simply share the Good News with those who are in need of it, that every good & loving thing they have experienced or done is simply evidence that God is with/in them and loves them and they can trust God to continue to be with/in them and love them, no matter what? Or would they continue to insist that God's love is conditional?
What would you have us do when we believe someone is following the wrong path? Remain silent and let them go in their lostness? Lie and say, "Yeah, that's right!"
Doing that would make us unfaithful to either Christ or you.
But, belief is an exercise of the mind, a conscious decision to believe based upon the available evidence. From that decision comes true, New Testament faith. That's not to say that salvation is simply done intellectually because that kind of belief takes root in the heart and results in some kind of affirmative action. That's why we're told that to believe IN THE Heart, not just with the head.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)
Without God's Spirit, man cannot believe. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and He must give it to us first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
The word of God is the Bible and faith comes by accepting the evidence of Jesus Christ contained within it. That's why I repeatedly say that you cannot have Christ without the Bible.
Christ has always existed. The Bible is only a few thousand years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
False professions are about as effective as false testimonies. Eternal life will not be successfully built on a lie.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
Time is running out. That's why today is the day of salvation.
"Today is the day of salvation" not because we are in a hurry. God is not rushed. They call it "today" because that is all we have: the eternal now.
Without God drawing man to Himself, man will not come. Jesus said this plainly, and my own life is a confirmation of it.
It all still revolves around Jesus Christ. Without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the seal and proof of your salvation) it's insufficient works and does nothing to impress God.
I remember how important it was for me in the past to convince myself that somehow only Christians were capable of "real" love/good because to think otherwise would mean that there was something fishy about the doctrines I'd been taught... the whole house of cards might come tumbling down.
But God/love is powerful enough to work in and change people's lives and hearts without them having to intellectually grasp whatever concepts Christians think have to be grasped.
Shoot, some of the time I still have sincere doubts that God even exists, and most of the time I can't help but think that the stories of Jesus are just that ... stories (good ones, with a lot of symbolic truth, but stories nonetheless). Intellectually, I sometimes find the sea of contradictory (and self-contradicting) Christian doctrines a difficult thing to navigate.
And yet, through all the doubts, I still keep coming back to an underlying trust that God/Love is at work within me and that isn't dependent on my mental ability to make all the pieces fit. Thank God for that.
But I am constantly bombarded by Christians saying that I have to have the "correct knowledge" or else I have no business trusting God because he doesn't approve of me and I most certainly am not experiencing God's love at work within me and, of course, if I don't figure things out before I die, I never will experience it.
If Christians had any idea just how much their doctrine-pushing discourages others, I wonder if they would still insist on pushing them? Would they be willing to simply share the Good News with those who are in need of it, that every good & loving thing they have experienced or done is simply evidence that God is with/in them and loves them and they can trust God to continue to be with/in them and love them, no matter what? Or would they continue to insist that God's love is conditional?
Pleroo... I absolutely loved your whole post. The stuff that I bolded above especially resonated with me.
I remember how important it was for me in the past to convince myself that somehow only Christians were capable of "real" love/good because to think otherwise would mean that there was something fishy about the doctrines I'd been taught... the whole house of cards might come tumbling down.
But God/love is powerful enough to work in and change people's lives and hearts without them having to intellectually grasp whatever concepts Christians think have to be grasped.
Shoot, some of the time I still have sincere doubts that God even exists, and most of the time I can't help but think that the stories of Jesus are just that ... stories (good ones, with a lot of symbolic truth, but stories nonetheless). Intellectually, I sometimes find the sea of contradictory (and self-contradicting) Christian doctrines a difficult thing to navigate.
And yet, through all the doubts, I still keep coming back to an underlying trust that God/Love is at work within me and that isn't dependent on my mental ability to make all the pieces fit. Thank God for that.
But I am constantly bombarded by Christians saying that I have to have the "correct knowledge" or else I have no business trusting God because he doesn't approve of me and I most certainly am not experiencing God's love at work within me and, of course, if I don't figure things out before I die, I never will experience it.
If Christians had any idea just how much their doctrine-pushing discourages others, I wonder if they would still insist on pushing them? Would they be willing to simply share the Good News with those who are in need of it, that every good & loving thing they have experienced or done is simply evidence that God is with/in them and loves them and they can trust God to continue to be with/in them and love them, no matter what? Or would they continue to insist that God's love is conditional?
I tend to ignore folks who think they've cornered the market on the "truth" and I've met very few Christians who actually UNDERSTAND exactly what the Good News is...the majority have absolutely no clue...their good news includes alot of man made precepts, doctrine and dogma one has to believe in first.
I tend to ignore folks who think they've cornered the market on the "truth" and I've met very few Christians who actually UNDERSTAND exactly what the Good News is...the majority have absolutely no clue...their good news includes alot of man made precepts, doctrine and dogma one has to believe in first.
LOL. Doesn't your own comment try to "corner the market on truth"? I mean, if you can claim that others have absolutely no clue, then surely that means that you think you havea clue. The UR-Atheist coalition is on a roll today.
LOL. Doesn't your own comment try to "corner the market on truth"? I mean, if you can claim that others have absolutely no clue, then surely that means that you think you havea clue. The UR-Atheist coalition is on a roll today.
No...I know what I know from what I have experienced regarding God. If asked I share it...but I have never claimed it to be the "ABSOLUTE ONLY TRUTH OUT THERE"....like most of the alleged Christians do. There are many paths to God and each person is given their own path at their own designated time.
The clue I have is this....YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. It's not that difficult to discern between those who are actually IN CHRIST and those who just pay lip service.
No...I know what I know from what I have experienced regarding God. If asked I share it...but I have never claimed it to be the "ABSOLUTE ONLY TRUTH OUT THERE"....like most of the alleged Christians do. There are many paths to God and each person is given their own path at their own designated time.
If you admit you do not have the truth, then you can't say that other's don't have a clue. You wouldn't know.
Maybe you should share, because a year ago you said you were an atheist (unless I have you mixed up with someone else).
Quote:
The clue I have is this....YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. It's not that difficult to discern between those who are actually IN CHRIST and those who just pay lip service
Yes, you watch their fruit. On another thread just a few minutes ago someone flew off the handle saying all kinds of bad things about other people. It shows bad fruit. The other thing you can do is examine their teachings, because people say all kinds of things but then you check their teaching against the Bible you find a lot of contradiction.
If you admit you do not have the truth, then you can't say that other's don't have a clue. You wouldn't know.
Maybe you should share, because a year ago you said you were an atheist (unless I have you mixed up with someone else).
Yes you have mixed me up with someone else because I've never said I was an Atheist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Yes, you watch their fruit. On another thread just a few minutes ago someone flew off the handle saying all kinds of bad things about other people. It shows bad fruit. The other thing you can do is examine their teachings, because people say all kinds of things but then you check their teaching against the Bible you find a lot of contradiction.
Correct...bad fruit is evidence that those who think they are on the path are not and that would include anyone of any religion.
I disagree...the bible is not the only place to find spiritual truth. Christianity does not have the market on God...God can be found in many ways...for many have done it without knowing anything about the Christian God.
What would you have us do when we believe someone is following the wrong path? Remain silent and let them go in their lostness? Lie and say, "Yeah, that's right!"
Doing that would make us unfaithful to either Christ or you.
In the past I would've answered a post like mine much the same probably. But I've come to the understanding that salvation, biblically speaking, is all about Christ's faithfulness. As I understand it, Christ is the Word/Spirit of God revealing the true nature of God which is Love and which is holding no one's sins against them. I trust that if this is true of God's nature, I am safe with God. Further, I believe what the name of Jesus reveals about God which is, "God saves".
I trust, further, that if these things are true then if it is necessary for me to intellecutally understand/assent to anything more than this in order to experience salvation fully, then God will certainly reveal and convict me of those things.
I can't force myself to not have doubts about the existence of this God, about the historicity of Jesus, or about the bible, but I know from experience that when I am trusting that God's nature is Love, then I am at peace no matter how muddled I may be about anything else.
So, would discouraging me from trusting that God show faithfulness on your part or a lack of trust?
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