Where does Bible say Jesus is God (divine, America, Corinthians)
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The LXX is a Greek translation from the Hebrew. It translates the Hebrew word shachah which can simply mean, 'to bow down' as proskuneo. Lot did not know at first that the two 'men' were really angels. He did later, but not at first. Therefore, there was no worship in the sense of for lack of a better term 'religious adoration. Lot simply greeted the two angels which he thought were men but who were really angels.
and Lot seeing them, rose up to meet them: he arose from his seat and went forward to meet them, which showed his readiness and heartiness to receive them:
and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; not in a religious way, as paying worship to angels, for as yet he did not know them to be such, and if he had, would not have given them divine adoration; but in a civil way, as was the custom of the eastern countries to bow very low in their civil respects to men, especially to great personages; and such Lot took these to be by their goodly looks and by their dress, as appears by his salutation of them in Genesis 19:2.
I made no interpretation of Rev 22:8-9. Nor does it conflict with Genesis 19:1-2.
Rev 22:8 'And I, John, am the one who head and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship (proskunēsai) at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9] And he said to me, ''Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God.''
Here's another Excerpt from Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible...
I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. This is the second time John did so, though warned of it, and rebuked for it, which shows the proneness even of good men to fall into sin again and again; and what a propensity there is in mankind to idolatry; and very likely this might be suffered, that a second reproof might be given, and repeated instructions be on record, to prevent the worshipping of angels, introduced in the first ages of Christianity.
Revelation 22:8 Bible Commentary
John had already prevously fell at the angels feet, only to told not too. Revelation 19:10 "Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Paul warns against the worship of angels (Col 2:18), which the Scriptures forbid (Exodus 20:3-4 compared with Rev 22:8-9).
No, angels did not accept worship (proskuneo) as has already been explained, and no man rightfully accepted (proskuneo). As already shown, Peter refused Cornelius' attempt to worship him.
Acts 10:25 'And when it came about that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26] But Peter raised him up, saying, ''Stand up; I too am just a man.''
Now, because the following two links can go into much more detail then I can as I can only type so much, I am presenting them to show that 'Proskuneo' is indeed used of Christ in connection with His deity.
Jesus: Worship or "do obeisance to"
Proper Worship
I don’t know Greek. I don’t even know the Greek alphabet. So as of right now I am going to avoid such arguments. But Mike it is not altogether true that men and ‘angels’ have always rejected “worship”. You make look up at your convenience 1Ch 29:20 where David was ‘worshipped’. I already gave you Gen. 19:1-2 where Lot ‘worships’ the ‘angels’ of ‘god’. Lot even called them ‘lords’.
If you want a NT example, Mat. 18:26 the servant in the parable “worshipped” his master. Rev. 3:9 the Philadelphians, it says, were to be “worshipped”. False teachers would come and “worship” before their feet.
Mike the point I am trying to make is that the “worship” of Jesus doesn't require him to be one and the same person as ‘god’- for the same Greek words used in the Greek versions of the OT and the NT about 'worship' of Jesus are used about “worship” of ‘angels’ and men. And that's really my point here. I am not going to dabble in equivocation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
As for why the Greek word Latreuo isn't used for Jesus until Rev 22:3, Latreuo though sometimes translated as 'worship' in English, properly means 'to serve'. Therefore, it may be that the New Testament writers didn't use that word because Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve.
However, in Revelation 22:3, the word Latreuo is used both for God the Father and the Lamb - Jesus Christ as they sit on the throne.
The Greek word is not used both for ‘god’ and the Lamb. Rev. 22:23 says “…God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him…” Mike the personal pronoun ‘him’ could mean either ‘god’ or the Lamb not both. The bulk of evidence from the New Testament, however, will leave us with no choice but to settle with the Greek word being rendered to ‘god’ not Christ.
I did not realise we have two threads about the same thing. Look in the other thread "does the bible say Jesus is God" for a hundred scriptures that show Jesus is NOT God.
Mike those links don't do anything to help your cause. No scripture tells us to worship Jesus Christ. Therefore to worship Jesus as God the Father is to make an idol out of Jesus.
Moses made a serpent, set it on a stake and all who looked to it were healed. This serpent on a stake we are told is a representation of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for us. However keep reading about what the people did with this serpent on the stake. The people made an idol of it and worshiped it, something they should not have done, for God alone is to be worshiped. Sounds just like you guys who believe we are to worship Jesus Christ as God does it not.
But of course you will only want to take the symbolism of Moses serpent up to Jesus hanging on the cross and reject what is shown further in the symbolism.
I did not realise we have two threads about the same thing. Look in the other thread "does the bible say Jesus is God" for a hundred scriptures that show Jesus is NOT God.
Mike those links don't do anything to help your cause. No scripture tells us to worship Jesus Christ. Therefore to worship Jesus as God the Father is to make an idol out of Jesus.
Moses made a serpent, set it on a stake and all who looked to it were healed. This serpent on a stake we are told is a representation of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for us. However keep reading about what the people did with this serpent on the stake. The people made an idol of it and worshiped it, something they should not have done, for God alone is to be worshiped. Sounds just like you guys who believe we are to worship Jesus Christ as God does it not.
But of course you will only want to take the symbolism of Moses serpent up to Jesus hanging on the cross and reject what is shown further in the symbolism.
Yep...that's how Mike rolls!!!
Jesus taught us the WAY to God...we are not supposed to be worshiping the teacher.
That's just it. When you quote the bible, it's not you doing the talking. You are reiterating what someone else said. You are being a mindless robot and therefore, you are not giving your own opinion. Even quoting the bible is speculation and conjecture. Jesus set us all free of bondage and when we use the bible as an excuse, we are not free because the bible puts one in the bondage of the past. You will never be free until you start living your own life and not someone elses. All you fundies do is live someone elses life like it were your own. Well, it's not. You are you and the writers and editors of the bible are other people. Just let go and let God and everything will work out just fine.
It's difficult for me to understand how you (and seemingly others on this forum) could truly have a valid position regarding Jesus, or God the Father, or salvation...if you undermine the Bible as you seem to do.
Outside the Bible, where can we receive information about these matters? If the Bible is not reliable, how can any other source be reliable?
The Bible is where all of this information originates. Any other place from where we obtain information about God or Christ is either specualtion, or something that uses the Bible as its base of authority.
I know this is not a thread regarding the Bible specifically, so I won't get into any big discussion about the Bible being the Word of God. It would be good to spend more time on this issue, but I have to say very honestly that we are in a very dangerous place if we dare to establish a theology about these things where the Bible is not our absolute authority. Otherwise, we are becoming the authority. We say who or what God is, as per how we would like it to be, not how God says it is.
When we speak of the Spirit within us, it is based on our own invention of such a thing. Yet, we are OK with the Bible when it tells us that God is love. Why trust anything in the Bible if we don't necessarily believe it is the Word of God?
It seems that others who are not Christians would believe much of what is often shared in these threads about God (the Father) and Christ (and when I refer to Christians, I am speaking of those people who have placed their trust in Christ as Savior, believing what the Bible says about our inability to stand before God on our own behalf).
I don't want to make this post terribly long, so I'll try to end here and continue later. I don't know if you can see that even this post is being given out of love. We need to speak the truth in love, as the Bible admonishes.
When we read a verse like John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", it's hard to just try to explain away such a thing.
When Col 2:9 says that in Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of all the Godhead bodily, it is difficult to make that say something else.
In Hebrews 1:8, the Bible quotes form Psalm 45:6, and applies these words to Christ:
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
And two verses prior, we read, "...And let all the angels of God worship Him".
There is a great deal more that can be offered, but I'll just leave it here for now. One poster said she could forgive sins. We can forgive an individual for something that he or she does to us, personally. But we can't take a sin away from an individual's account before God. Only God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, can do this.
It is extremely difficult for any of us to comprehend the idea of a triune God. God is eternal, and exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the three persons is as much God as the other, but with specific purposes. Christ was necessary in procuring our salvation. When He came into the world in human form He had to be subservient to the Father in carrying out His mediatorial function as Redeemer of mankind.
Once we see our need of salvation, and understand who Christ is, He becomes that much more precious to the redeemed sinner.
I did not realise we have two threads about the same thing. Look in the other thread "does the bible say Jesus is God" for a hundred scriptures that show Jesus is NOT God.
Mike those links don't do anything to help your cause. No scripture tells us to worship Jesus Christ. Therefore to worship Jesus as God the Father is to make an idol out of Jesus.
During His First Advent, Jesus came to serve, not to be served. Matt 20:28 'just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.' Yet He always accepted worship when it was given Him.
Quote:
Moses made a serpent, set it on a stake and all who looked to it were healed. This serpent on a stake we are told is a representation of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for us. However keep reading about what the people did with this serpent on the stake. The people made an idol of it and worshiped it, something they should not have done, for God alone is to be worshiped. Sounds just like you guys who believe we are to worship Jesus Christ as God does it not.
But of course you will only want to take the symbolism of Moses serpent up to Jesus hanging on the cross and reject what is shown further in the symbolism.
No Scriptures show that Jesus Christ is not God. The Scriptures plainly state directly that Jesus IS God. Not God the Father, but God the Son. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, which is a title of His deity. In ancient Semitic thought, 'the son of' was understood to mean 'in the likeness of' - 'as the same nature of' - 'to be equal to'.
When Jesus said that He is the Son of God, He was saying that He IS God. And so it was understood by the Jews who tried to kill Him for having said it.
John 5:18 'For this cause therefore, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 10:33 'The Jews answered Him, ''For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.''
Do you not understand that Jesus claimed equality with God which means that He was saying that He is God? You may not understand it, but the Jews to whom Jesus spoke DID understand it. And understanding it, but not believing it, they tried to stone Him to death.
Phil 2:5-8 states plainly that Jesus Christ pre-existed as God and that He was equal with God.
Phil 2:5 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2] He was in the beginning with God....14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begoten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
That Jesus Christ is God is one of the most basic tenets of the Christian faith. For so He is declared to be in the word of God.
As for the serpent on the standard which Moses held up (Numbers 21:8-9) ... Jesus used the example of Moses' lifting up of the serpent as a strking example of His work on the cross.
John 3:14 ''And as Moses lfted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15] that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.
John 8:28 ''When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He...''
John 12:32 ''And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.'' 33] But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-14-2011 at 08:28 AM..
When we read a verse like John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", it's hard to just try to explain away such a thing.
When Col 2:9 says that in Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of all the Godhead bodily, it is difficult to make that say something else.
In Hebrews 1:8, the Bible quotes form Psalm 45:6, and applies these words to Christ:
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
And two verses prior, we read, "...And let all the angels of God worship Him".
There is a great deal more that can be offered, but I'll just leave it here for now. One poster said she could forgive sins. We can forgive an individual for something that he or she does to us, personally. But we can't take a sin away from an individual's account before God. Only God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, can do this.
It is extremely difficult for any of us to comprehend the idea of a triune God. God is eternal, and exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the three persons is as much God as the other, but with specific purposes. Christ was necessary in procuring our salvation. When He came into the world in human form He had to be subservient to the Father in carrying out His mediatorial function as Redeemer of mankind.
Once we see our need of salvation, and understand who Christ is, He becomes that much more precious to the redeemed sinner.
Those passages show clearly that Jesus is God, and they cannot be explained away. But there will always be those who will try to do so. As I just mentioned in another post, that Jesus Christ is God is one of the most basic tenets of the Christian faith because the Scriptures so declare Him to be.
When we read a verse like John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", it's hard to just try to explain away such a thing.
When Col 2:9 says that in Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of all the Godhead bodily, it is difficult to make that say something else.
In Hebrews 1:8, the Bible quotes form Psalm 45:6, and applies these words to Christ:
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
And two verses prior, we read, "...And let all the angels of God worship Him".
There is a great deal more that can be offered, but I'll just leave it here for now. One poster said she could forgive sins. We can forgive an individual for something that he or she does to us, personally. But we can't take a sin away from an individual's account before God. Only God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, can do this.
It is extremely difficult for any of us to comprehend the idea of a triune God. God is eternal, and exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the three persons is as much God as the other, but with specific purposes. Christ was necessary in procuring our salvation. When He came into the world in human form He had to be subservient to the Father in carrying out His mediatorial function as Redeemer of mankind.
Once we see our need of salvation, and understand who Christ is, He becomes that much more precious to the redeemed sinner.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
To believe that Jesus is God is something that doesn't come from within human reason or intelligence or "within"
To believe in a Triune God is the same. To believe that it is true doesn't have the absolute requirement that one must understand how it functions within itself that the anti-trinitarian insists is the prerequisite.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
To believe that Jesus is God is something that doesn't come from within human reason or intelligence or "within"
To believe in a Triune God is the same. To believe that it is true doesn't have the absolute requirement that one must understand how it functions within itself that the anti-trinitarian insists is the prerequisite.
Amen.... it is through the Spirit of God one walks by faith, not by sight !!
"To those who have faith, no explanation is necessary, yet, to those without faith, no explanation is possible !!"
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