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I think it may be more along the lines of something like what we read in 2 Cor 8:9:
" For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich".
This may not speak directly to the issue, but I believe it may have some bearing. At any rate, it's an important verse, and it speaks quite a bit to what Christ did in order to save His people. It speaks a great deal about who Christ is, and what He had to do/become in order to save us.
It's not unlike what we read in 2 Cor 5:21:
" For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".
A heavy price to pay, indeed! Now if we really want to see love, we see at at its fullest right here.
Yes...Jesus became poor by emptying his egoic/carnal self and therefore attaining the highest level of consciousness possible...the God consciousness...and then became ONE with God. This is what we are called to do but not many actually do it or even attempt it.
Revelation 22 tends to switch between speakers abruptly. I was just asking who you think was the quoted speaker in Rev 22.13. I believe an ‘angel’ was the quoted speaker in Rev 22.13. I will say the angel is speaking about ‘god’. I don’t think ‘god’ was speaking in Rev. 22:13. Rather, the angel/messenger was delivering ‘his’ words.
I can understand your identifying the angel as the one speaking in Rev 22:13 since in John's writing that is the last speaker explicitly identified (Rev 22:10). Obviously the proclamations of Rev 22:13 could only be attributed to God, not an angel. Whether it is John quoting an angel, and an angel quoting God is not readily revealed in the text. However, most scholars believe what John has said in many verses; that he saw these visions in first person perspective. So, if he is recounting a statement that is attributed to God, without any other speaker specifically identified or grammar that indicates it is being quoted by another, it is believed he is quoting God, or the speaker, directly.
I believe in the context we see in Rev 22:11, the angel has concluded his statement to John directing him to reveal the prophecy of his visions. Then John Jumps right in, following that direction, with an opening statement he quoted directly from God (Rev 22:12-15). I am sure John did not feel compelled to identify the speaker because as every Christian unmistakably knows this is God speaking, whether quoted by and angel or heard directly and quoted by John. Then when the speaker changes in Rev 22:16 John identifies the change in speakers and seems to quote directly. He also directly identifies a change in who he is quoting in Rev 22:17.
I see it as John being fairly articulate in identifying who he is quoting. He also gives us enough credit to KNOW God and not needing to identify him when he is obviously the only one who could make those proclamations.
Generally the waters only get muddied when the trinitarians come along and try to claim Rev 22:13 is Jesus who is speaking. Everyone knows it is God but they have to find someway to promote their false doctrine. John identified when Jesus started speaking in verse 17, but they do not trust the inspired writings, they have to overlay their interpretations.
Last edited by BWW1962; 08-19-2011 at 05:41 PM..
Reason: spelling
I will not be disappointed if you stick to your word. However, I will still be compelled to point out the fallicies of you posts and promotion of false doctrine.
We will not miss much because your post mainly consist of rhetorical statements deviod of substance and telling people to go look he works of some theologian.
The point of this thread is "Where does the Bible say Jesus is God", not what do theologians say.
Phil 2:7-8 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
hyposatic union? tinity twaddle, philosophies of man. The Bible clearly says he took the the very nature, form (morphe) of man. Up until his death there is no duality of form or nature presented in the Bible. It is just NOT in the Bible.
I will not be disappointed if you stick to your word. However, I will still be compelled to point out the fallicies of you posts and promotion of false doctrine.
We will not miss much because your post mainly consist of rhetorical statements deviod of substance and telling people to go look he works of some theologian.
The point of this thread is "Where does the Bible say Jesus is God", not what do theologians say.
Phil 2:7-8 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
hyposatic union? tinity twaddle, philosophies of man. The Bible clearly says he took the the very nature, form (morphe) of man. Up until his death there is no duality of form or nature presented in the Bible. It is just NOT in the Bible.
If you challenge what I say in future threads, I will continue to expose you as a false teacher. On this thread, I am done with you.
And for your information, Jesus did NOT take the morphe of man. He took the schema of man. Two different words both of which have been translated as form. They have different meanings.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-19-2011 at 06:11 PM..
Yes...Jesus became poor by emptying his egoic/carnal self and therefore attaining the highest level of consciousness possible...the God consciousness...and then became ONE with God. This is what we are called to do but not many actually do it or even attempt it.
Do you know why it was necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin? After reading your post I doubt very much that you do know the answer to that.
Do you know why Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness?
They are really two different side of the same coin. Jesus was the new "Adam". He had no carnal nature and could not have had if He was to be the perfect the sacrifice and the new representitive Head of all His people.
Satan does not have to do anything special to any of the sons and daughters of Adam. He owns them already because they are born with a fallen sinful nature. Just as Jesus is representitive of all His posterity so Adam is of his. Satan was trying to do to Jesus the same thing he did to Adam in the garden and he failed.
Jesus was born perfect, lived a perfect life and only because of that fact can He pay the penalty due to sinful men.
When God looks at me He does not see the mass of corruption that I am. He sees the perfect righteousness of Jesus. That's the good news of the gospel. And praise glory and honour be to Him for it.
And for your information, Jesus did NOT take the morphe of man. He took the schema of man. Two different words both of which have been translated as form. They have different meanings.
Phil 2:7-8
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (morphe - 3444) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion (schemati - 4976) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
We see that Jesus took BOTH the form (morphe) and fashion (schemati) of man. Paul first explains he took the form of man in verse 7, and then expounds on that in verse 8 to include that Jesus also had the fashion of man. That Paul elucidates the principle by using both words in two consecutive verses is noteworthy.
Paul's clear message here contradicts the false man made philosophy of hypostatic union. The importance of Paul's message is made clear in the later part of verse 8 establishing that Jesus maintained this form (morphe & schemati) unto his death. Jesus did die.
This also contradicts and exposes the trinity heresy of denying Jesus death. They have always denied Jesus death because to acknowledge it would be to admit that their God actually died and was dead for three days. They have created this hypostatic union philosophy, and other explanations, to create this duality in Jesus of deity/man so the man could die and the deity could never die. Paul teaches us there was no duality. The Bible never says Jesus did not die, in any form or fashion.
As we have seen in your presentations Mike555, you and your theologians try to deceive us with these philosophies saying they are to designed to help us "understand" the Bible, when in fact they contradict the teachings of the Bible.
Paul has made VERY clear that Jesus was man in both form (morphe) and fashion (schemati), completely man until his death. There is not one scripture that says he was part man, part God. That is only found outside the Bible in the false doctrine of the trinity.
AGAIN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And for your information, Jesus did NOT take the morphe of man. He took the schema of man. Two different words both of which have been translated as form. They have different meanings.
We see Mike555, by examining the original Greek of the scriptures the information you present is inaccurate and the man made doctrines you represent are in conflict with the Bible.
Last edited by BWW1962; 08-19-2011 at 11:26 PM..
Reason: spelling
My understanding, as it has been revealed to me, is when Jesus stated that he and the Father were "one"...he was speaking about consciousness. Jesus had attained the highest level of consciousness...the God consciousness and so could state that they were one...which sadly morphed into the man made Trinity heresy.
While we are not the one true God...we are part of the God consciousness...most just don't know it and don't even attempt to gain the awareness to know it. This is what Putting On The Mind of Christ is all about. Our consciousness is WHO WE TRULY ARE...not the egoic/carnal self most equate as their true self...which is why Jesus stated we should deny "self"...for one will never see, let alone find, the Kingdom of God within while living through it.
I agree Christy, it is the mind of Christ in us that makes us one with the Father.
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (morphe - 3444) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion (schemati - 4976) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
We see that Jesus took BOTH the form (morphe) and fashion (schemati) of man. Paul first explains he took the form of man in verse 7, and then expounds on that in verse 8 to include that Jesus also had the fashion of man. That Paul elucidates the principle by using both words in two consecutive verses is noteworthy.
Paul's clear message here contradicts the false man made philosophy of hypostatic union. The importance of Paul's message is made clear in the later part of verse 8 establishing that Jesus maintained this form (morphe & schemati) unto his death. Jesus did die.
This also contradicts and exposes the trinity heresy of denying Jesus death. They have always denied Jesus death because to acknowledge it would be to admit that their God actually died and was dead for three days. They have created this hypostatic union philosophy, and other explanations, to create this duality in Jesus of deity/man so the man could die and the deity could never die. Paul teaches us there was no duality. The Bible never says Jesus did not die, in any form or fashion.
As we have seen in your presentations Mike555, you and your theologians try to deceive us with these philosophies saying they are to designed to help us "understand" the Bible, when in fact they contradict the teachings of the Bible.
Paul has made VERY clear that Jesus was man in both form (morphe) and fashion (schemati), completely man until his death. There is not one scripture that says he was part man, part God. That is only found outside the Bible in the false doctrine of the trinity.
AGAIN
We see Mike555, by examining the original Greek of the scriptures the information you present is inaccurate and the man made doctrines you represent are in conflict with the Bible.
You can pound your chest as much as you like.... but it doesn't change the fact Jesus did things only which is ascribed to Jehovah.
"actions speaks louder than words" ... Jesus' actions spoke to the fact he is Jehovah, the Godman prophesied, the Messiah and one day you will be forced to acknowledge it. And that acknowledgement will not be done in belief but in admission how wrong you are.
First of all, using condescending terms such as 'prattling on' does nothing to lend you any credibility.
True, and I apologise for my use of words.
Quote:
Infinite God cannot be fully understood by the finite mind of man.
That is the same thing as saying the mind of Christ in us cannot understand the infinite God. You sure you want to go there?
Quote:
That in no way invalidates explaining something about God to the best that it can be understood. The Bible reveals that God is One. It also reveals that there are three Persons who are God. This is perfectly understandable. But because God is infinitely beyond the ability of man to truly comprehend, there is much about the trinity that this side of heaven cannot be fully understood.
That is a total contradiction to what Jesus taught. One of Jesus' missions was to teach us of the Father. And I for one don't believe He left anything said about the Father unsaid.
Quote:
It is ironic that those who reject Biblical revelation and instead push their own distorted doctrines, attribute the Bible as nothing more than mans doctrines.
Sorry but I don't reject the scriptural revelations, I reject you understanding of what the scriptures are saying, that is a BIG difference.
Quote:
Actually Scripture states, ''For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6] who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time (1 Tim 2:6).
That is NOT the scripture I was referring to Mike. This is the one
Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Now anyone who has studied the KJV bible knows that when italics are used they are insertions of the translators, supposedly to help us understand the meaning of what is said, However most insertions are done with a bias towards the translator doctrine. So let's read that scripture without insertion of the translator.
Now a mediator is not of one, but God is one.
Therefore the mediator is NOT God as God is ONE and the mediator is NOT of one.
Quote:
That passage means that Jesus Christ who is both God and man is equal to both God and man and therefore is qualified to be the mediator between God and man.
The passage you cited actually backs up what the scripture in Galatians states. There is ONE God, and ONE mediator. The mediator CANNOT be God as God is NOT the mediator, Jesus Christ is the mediator between the ONE God and man.
Quote:
Here is commentary on 1 Tim 2:5 which explain the passage, and saves me the time and trouble of having to go into more detail when I know that you arent' going to believe me anyway...--> 1 Timothy 2:5 Bible Commentary
That God is One in essence and three in Person is completely Scriptural.
Mike, I know you place a lot of faith in these men but they are just men and are just as fallible as anyone of us. I prefer to do my own studies and let the Holy Spirit guide me where He will.
Quote:
The title 'Christ' is simply a reference to the fact the Jesus is the Anointed One. The Messiah, the Savior
I am aware of the fact Christ means Anointed Mike, but you seem to be unaware of the fact that Christ or the Anointed one is more then just Jesus who is but the HEAD of the BODY.
Quote:
The church is a royal family which is being called out during the church-age to go with Jesus' royal title of 'King of kings and Lord of Lords'.
As the Son of God, Jesus' royal family is the other two Persons of the Godhead.
As the Son of David, Jesus' royal family is the entire Davidic Dynasty.
As the God-Man, as of the virgin birth, Jesus needed a royal family to go with His royal warrant as 'King of kings and Lord of Lords. For that reason, God interrupted the age of Israel and brought in the church-age. Everyone who believes in Christ during the church-age is a part of the church- the body of Christ- the bride of Christ.
Sorry but that shows me you do not know who we are in Christ, I am a member of His BODY, I bear His name just as all the children of God do.
Quote:
Your lack of understanding does not change the facts, or negate the truth. The One true God is the triune God. God is One in His essence or nature. He is three in Person.
That is only a fact according to you Mike, just because you believe something does NOT make it a fact.
Quote:
I have already explained this. Just as there were many Asherah which were wooden symbols of the female deity Ashtaroth who was the consort of Baal, so to was the bronze serpent used in the worship of them. In worshipping the bronze serpent, and the Asherah, they were worshipping Baal and Ashtaroth.
Here is exactly what I said in post #491.
Yes, you explained what you believed it to mean, However your belief goes against what the scriptures actually say, which is that the IDOL was the brazen serpent NOT Baal and Ashtaroth.
Quote:
Not at all. In Judges 2:11-13, Israel is seen worshiping Baal and the Ashtoroth. In Canaan, the goddess Ashtoreth was the consort of Baal.
Judges 2:11 'Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served the Baals, 12] and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger. 13] So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
In 2 Kings 18:1-4 Hezekiah removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made. Israel was still worshiping Ashtaroth. The Asherah were wooden symbols of the female deity Ashtaroth.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 573, states...
Josiah also destroyed the idols used to aid in the worship of Baal and Asherah (2 Chron. 31:1). The bronze snake that Moses ... made in the wilderness (Num. 21:5-9) had been preserved and had become a religious fetish. Hezekiah broke it up since it was a spiritually unclean thing; it had become a stumbling block to the Israelites. (Nehushtan was the name of the snake, a word that sounded like the Heb. for ''bronze,'' ''snake,'' and ''unclean thing''; cf. NIV marg.)
Israel when they left off of worshiping God worshipped many different gods/idols Mike. And one of the IDOL'S they worshipped was the brazen serpent. You don't like it but that is exactly what the scriptures teach.
Quote:
The one true God is the triune God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
But you believe what you want.
Frankly, I am tired of taking the time explaining things to you which you have no desire to even understand. It is simply a waste of my time which is better used for other things.
Well Mike Jesus ALWAYS made the distinction between Himself and the Father (who is the ONE true God) so how is it I am wrong when I am only making the same distinction.
You can pound your chest as much as you like.... but it doesn't change the fact Jesus did things only which is ascribed to Jehovah.
"actions speaks louder than words" ... Jesus' actions spoke to the fact he is Jehovah, the Godman prophesied, the Messiah and one day you will be forced to acknowledge it. And that acknowledgement will not be done in belief but in admission how wrong you are.
LOL, that is an interesting characterization. "Pounding my chest"?
I have only shown what the Bible says, to correct the misstatements of Mike555. How am I wrong? I do repeat my point several times from slightly different perspectives. I can see how you may interpret that as pounding my chest. Or, maybe it is just an exaggeration because you do not like that my presentation was accurate and invalidated Mike555s point.
Citing a scripture and then giving the "theological" explination is missing the point. Where does the BIBLE say it?
I am still waiting for ANYONE to actually talk about the Bible. Not one presentation has discussed the scriptures. We only get a citation and theological interpretation; no examination or explination within the context of the Bible.
What does the cited scripture explicitly say? What does the surrounding context add to the understanding? What is the implications beyond the explicit message? Is the English translation the most accurate?
Metaphysics and theological concepts that are not TAUGHT in the Bible are inconsistant with the theme of the thread.
Twin.spin,
I am interested in hearing the specifics of your point. What actions of Jesus' in the Bible do you think provide the difinitive proof regardless of the written word?
As far as acknowledging I am wrong? Show me I am, by close examination of THE BIBLE.
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