Does God know what you are having for breakfast tomorrow? (prophecies, faith)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That is what an implied "IF" is. You are saying God meant He would only overthrow Nineveh IF they remained wicked. Otherwise IT IS A LIE.
This is regardless of whether God knew what would happen or not.
So it does not help your case.
Eek gad, when I said an "IF" was implied in regards to Hezekiah you said no "IF" was implied. Now that I have shown you Jonah that does not have an "IF" (the same as Hezekiah) you want a "IF" implied. Make up your mind.
You made a big deal out of Hezekiah not having an "IF" stated, here are a couple of your statements.
Quote:
As I said before, this is the problem: a prophecy is something that WILL happen, something that WILL come true. If it does not then it was not a prophecy, or it was a false prophecy.
Quote:
Regardless, lets look at the specific prophecy of Zedekiah. There is no "IF" in this prophecy:
So in my post regarding Jonah I left out the "IF" because it does not state an "IF" in it just like the scriptures about Hezekiah. If I had of said there was an implied "IF" just like in the Hezekiah scriptures you would have just said no "IF" is in the scriptures. I was meeting you where you live, making an argument from your understanding. But alas your understanding seems to have changed as now you are saying an "IF" is implied. Seems my strategy worked as you now see an implied "IF" in prophecy.
For myself I believe an "IF" is always implied in prophecy.
Quote:
Um,
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)
because that is what the implied "IF" means... I thought that was obvious... that is what we have been talking about.
If God says one thing and changes his mind and doesn't do it, it was a lie - UNLESS there was an understanding of an implied "IF" condition.
Correct, however you say God does NOT change His mind therefore He should have overthrew Nineveh just like He said He would do.
Quote:
Not with the implied "IF", which you also believe must be there in order for your view to not make God a liar.
Like I saidI believe an "IF" is always implied in prophecy.
Quote:
That is not what I said, nor implied. Quite simply Jonah was repeating God's message, but from Jonah's perspective. He fully expected the Ninevites to be punished if they did not repent.
Again this argument works against your view too. Was Jonah a false prophet because it was not recorded that he said "if"? Was Jonah repeating a lie from God?
This is a pointless line of discussion to follow because it is all irrelevant of whether God actually knew what would happen or not.
It is NOT irreverent Lego it goes right to the heart of the issue.
According to your understanding God foreknew Nineveh would repent when they heard the prophesy. So why would God say He was going to overthrow Nineveh if He never really planned to overthrow Nineveh? That makes God a liar as you don't believe God really meant that He would overthrow Nineveh.
Also according to you God cannot change His mind, so if God foreknew that Nineveh was going to repent why does it say God repented of what He was going to do and did it NOT?
Why would an "IF" ever be given in prophecy if everything is set in stone as you believe?
As an "IF" is used in prophecy it shows prophecy is NOT set in stone but is contingent on the choices of man.
If man does this, this happens; if man does that, that happens. Prophecy is NOT set in stone, mans choices fulfills one side or the other side of the prophecy.
And God does not foreknow which side of the prophecy will be fulfilled until man set their heart on the matter.
So if they are two different things why bring up the chaff when I was speaking of the tares?
Because the chaff are burned up in a similar manner as the tares.
Yet we know chaff is necessary to produce the wheat.
God created the wheat with the chaff.
Regarding the tares: they were sown by "an enemy"... but who created the enemy?
There is nothing that is not created by God.
The tares also serve a purpose.
Brother I have answered these type of questions already many time, but you do not listen.
Trust me I am listening - but its not making any sense.... even below you do not answer the question.
Quote:
Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Quote:
Yes these things happened Lego; however not according to your understanding. I use only one of your question and explain it. You will have to figure out the other ones yourself as they are all to be spiritually discerned.
I understand that they all have spiritual application and are to be spiritually discerned.
What I am asking is did they physically happen. Did they?
Quote:
Lets take your salt question.
When God rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah the people turned to salt. Salt is good, we are the salt of the earth, and everyone must be salted with fire. It is not a literal application it is a spiritual application. As long as you keep looking at these things as literal events you are still looking through the vail of the flesh.
As I said before, I can see arguments that S&G did not physically happen - it is debatable. So you think none of the other things physically happened?
Lets take another example, "closer to home" so to speak. Did Jesus physically calm a storm while He was here physically on earth? (I'm assuming you believe Jesus was physically here on earth; maybe you don't believe that. Please confirm.)
Quote:
You keep saying God did nothing to stop the earthquake, you do this because you have not yet understood that God gave US the keys to bind and loose, it is US through the power of the keys that is to bind the strong man. You say God did nothing, I say He gave US the KEYS, it is US that have failed to use the KEYS.
But this doesn't address the question at all. If Jesus had power to physically stop a storm, certainly God has power to physically stop an earthquake.
Unless you are trying to tell me you don't believe Jesus was physically here on earth.
Eek gad, when I said an "IF" was implied in regards to Hezekiah you said no "IF" was implied. Now that I have shown you Jonah that does not have an "IF" (the same as Hezekiah) you want a "IF" implied. Make up your mind.
You made a big deal out of Hezekiah not having an "IF" stated, here are a couple of your statements.
So in my post regarding Jonah I left out the "IF" because it does not state an "IF" in it just like the scriptures about Hezekiah. If I had of said there was an implied "IF" just like in the Hezekiah scriptures you would have just said no "IF" is in the scriptures. I was meeting you where you live, making an argument from your understanding. But alas your understanding seems to have changed as now you are saying an "IF" is implied. Seems my strategy worked as you now see an implied "IF" in prophecy.
For myself I believe an "IF" is always implied in prophecy.
pneuma, slow down.
There is no implied "IF" in Hezekiah because there is no need for an "IF". God said Hezekiah would die in peace and he did. Case closed.
Jonah is not as clear cut because God tells Jonah to "preach against" Nineveh and then Jonah tells Nineveh they will be destroyed in 40 days. There is an implied "IF" here for two reasons:
1. the way it was recorded (God's general statement vs. Jonah's specific statement)
2. if there is no "Implied IF" - it makes God a liar.
This is irrelevant as to whether God knew or didn't know what would happen. And in fact we should not assume God did not know what would happen because of this.
Quote:
Correct, however you say God does NOT change His mind therefore He should have overthrew Nineveh just like He said He would do.
Already explained this above and previously.
Quote:
Like I saidI believe an "IF" is always implied in prophecy.
It is NOT irreverent Lego it goes right to the heart of the issue.
According to your understanding God foreknew Nineveh would repent when they heard the prophesy. So why would God say He was going to overthrow Nineveh if He never really planned to overthrow Nineveh? That makes God a liar as you don't believe God really meant that He would overthrow Nineveh.
Already explained. IF they do not repent, God would have overthrown them. They repented, so He did not overthrow them. He knew all this would happen. It was in fact necessary so they would understand and repent.
Quote:
Also according to you God cannot change His mind, so if God foreknew that Nineveh was going to repent why does it say God repented of what He was going to do and did it NOT?
Quote:
Biblical condescension. Humans describe God as though He were a man in order to convey an idea. But God is not a man. We cannot exclude the sum of the whole word, especially the parts that show God is omniscient.
Quote:
Why would an "IF" ever be given in prophecy if everything is set in stone as you believe?
The "IF" has no bearing on God's foreknowledge - God already knows what will happen. The "IF" is for the benefit of us humans, who will have an opportunity to learn and repent.
Quote:
As an "IF" is used in prophecy it shows prophecy is NOT set in stone but is contingent on the choices of man.
If man does this, this happens; if man does that, that happens. Prophecy is NOT set in stone, mans choices fulfills one side or the other side of the prophecy.
And God does not foreknow which side of the prophecy will be fulfilled until man set their heart on the matter.
If prophecy is not set in stone, the whole thing falls apart. 100 prophecies about Christ just might not have happened - God didn't know. Prophecy would be useless to show anything, because anything at all could happen.
God is not a man who should change His mind.
God works all things according to the counsel of His will and purpose.
God has declared the end from the beginning, saying the things that are not yet done as though they are.
Please reread this carefully, I don't know if you read it the first time:
We choose everything ourself AND we always choose what God knows will we choose. It cannot be any other way... Unless you are willing to concede any existence of foreknowledge at all. Once something is foreknown 100% (even if it is only 30 seconds before), it must happen. Thats what foreknowledge means. It is foreknown to happen - it will happen. Therefore even in your limited view "30 second" foreknowledge, we still must do what God knows we will do, otherwise it isn't foreknowledge.
Do you understand that 100% foreknowledge demands this? If I have 100% foreknowledge that you will buy a new car tomorrow, then you will buy a new car tomorrow. It cannot be any other way - the 100% foreknowledge demands it.
Now of course no human has 100% foreknowledge. But God can and does.
The word really means to change, transform, turn, overturn either positively or negatively. Rarely does it mean "wiped out".
Deuteronomy 23:5 Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.
Esther 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.
Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.
1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. 8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. 9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
Psalms 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper. 11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; 12 To the end that [my] glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Psalms 114:7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob; 8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Lamentations 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
Lamentations 5:15 The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning. 16 The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!
Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
There is really no problem here with God foreknowing exactly what would happen. God's intent was to save Nineveh by sending Jonah to threaten them with evil, knowing they would repent, and knowing He would repent when they humbled themselves. We don't know all the "preaching" Jonah did, but even if his preaching consisted of only "yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown" then even these words came true, with or without the "if".
Regarding IF in prophecy and the implication that God does not know which half man will choose. This is refuted in Deuteronomy ch 29-31. God tells Israel about the blessing they will receive IF they obey and the curse that will come IF they do not obey. Yet God also tells Moses they will NOT obey. So God foreknew which IF they would choose, yet God gave them both IFs. God also tells why in ch 29: "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 09-21-2011 at 07:13 AM..
The word really means to change, transform, turn, overturn either positively or negatively. Rarely does it mean "wiped out".
Deuteronomy 23:5 Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.
Esther 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.
Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.
1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. 8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. 9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
Psalms 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper. 11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; 12 To the end that [my] glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Psalms 114:7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob; 8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Lamentations 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
Lamentations 5:15 The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning. 16 The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!
Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
There is really no problem here with God foreknowing exactly what would happen. God's intent was to save Nineveh by sending Jonah to threaten them with evil, knowing they would repent, and knowing He would repent when they humbled themselves. We don't know all the "preaching" Jonah did, but even if his preaching consisted of only "yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown" then even these words came true, with or without the "if".
Regarding IF in prophecy and the implication that God does not know which half man will choose. This is refuted in Deuteronomy ch 29-31. God tells Israel about the blessing they will receive IF they obey and the curse that will come IF they do not obey. Yet God also tells Moses they will NOT obey. So God foreknew which IF they would choose, yet God gave them both IFs. God also tells why in ch 29: "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".
Good point TKC! True, this is another way it could be seen, and again does not contradict with God foreknowing exactly what would happen.
I am NOT referring man to the fruit Bob, I am comparing God to a tree and man to a tree.
If you are concluding that man is good from the fact that “Every good tree [God] brings forth good fruit [man]” then you are comparing man to fruit, at least for a moment.
Yes God is a good tree and therefore every thing/fruit that comes from God must then be good. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. God is known by His fruit.
I agree.
Everything God created was good. Man is a good tree every thing/fruit that comes from man must then be good. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Man is known by his fruit. Adam did NOT bring forth corrupt fruit, sin is of the devil. It is he/the devil that sowed the tares among man. The evil that man does, does not come from himself it comes from the devil. Thus we are to know from whence the evil fruit comes. Sin and evil does not come from God, nor from man, sin is of the devil.
Man is not automatically a good tree. One point of the passage was Jesus telling us that we can know false prophets by their fruit. We can know the children of God from the children of the devil.
Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Brother if God directed or planned man to sin and do evil and man had no recourse but to do this then God is the author of sin and evil. Love worketh nor thinketh evil.
And as I said Paul taught us how to understand Ro.9 potter and the clay, which I have explained many times.
Causing someone to hurt another is evil Bob, therefore God planning man and directing man's steps to be evil to one another IS doing evil to someone.
This is true, However God sows good seed and reaps a good harvest. Everything God does to man is GOOD. Evil IS not good brother.
What you are saying to me is that God does evil to man in order to reap good fruit. Evil sown can only reap evil, evil sown never reaps good.
If God planned mans ruin Bob then God thinketh evil towards man. How can God plan for man to sin and be evil unless He first thought of it/evil? And again you are saying to me that God sowed evil in man for a greater purpose, the law of reaping what one sows forbids such an idea Bob.
Again you are saying that I said something I didn’t say. I never said God “does evil” or “sows evil”. I said that God made man weak knowing that man would sin. You believe that God doing this would be evil and this is the crux of our disagreement.
God bringing forth a man who is weak and not perfect, is not evil. Parents bring forth children knowing they will sin. It’s not evil. They see to the end of the process and expect the child to overcome those weaknesses as they learn.
God placing man within evil circumstances is not evil either. God intended man to enter the kingdom of God with much suffering.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ
Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
Thanks Bob for answering some of the questions I asked, but you left many yet unanswered.
Because the chaff are burned up in a similar manner as the tares.
So scripture also show man being burned up in a similar manner as Satan and his angels. Does that make man satan or one of his angels. They are NOT the same thing.
Quote:
Yet we know chaff is necessary to produce the wheat.
God created the wheat with the chaff.
Regarding the tares: they were sown by "an enemy"... but who created the enemy?
Already have explained this many time before, read my reply to Pelroo
Quote:
There is nothing that is not created by God.
Everything God created is GOOD, if God created Satan as you believe then Satan is GOOD.
Quote:
The tares also serve a purpose.
Not after your understanding. The rape and murder of children does NOT serve any purpose of Gods.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
