The True Heart Of The Matter...I Think I'm Becoming Agnostic (messages, punishment)

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

I've been fighting this.......truly, I have. I changed my belief to UR, which sounded more reasonable to me and completely scriptural but now....and for quite a while.....I just can't do it anymore. I don't believe myself and I can't convince myself otherwise.

I don't buy the Bible anymore, it's so contradictory and backward and there are some posts in another thread that finally prompted me to admit this. I see no evidence for belief, none at all.

When I really get down to the brass tax, all the arguments are just more indication to me that none of us really knows what we are talking about, and some of us don't know what to believe. I leave this open for discussion but I'm telling you, I just don't know anymore.

I have to take off, but feel free to comment however you see fit. I'll respond eventually.

I'm truly proud of you, Ilene! Thanks for your intellectual and personal honesty! If you care to discuss further, I'd be most happy to.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

I agree that telling someone that "being agnostic is entering a new stage of spiritual maturity" is horribly poor spiritual advice. Of course it does not sound like it is advice, but rather people deliberately leading someone in the wrong direction.

From a spiritual view point... this is like the passerby who hears a group of people encouraging the person to proceed down a better path ... presumably the same path they pursued. Oh what encouragement !!!

Then somebody with discernment comes up and states ...
ah btw........ these people happen to be shoulder to shoulder looking up at the hangman's noose. .......... It's spiritual suicide

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I do wonder one thing, though... When you say you're becoming agnostic, do you mean you are starting to wonder whether God even exists? Or are you just saying that you don't know what to believe about Him any more? If you still believe He exists, have you taken your concerns to Him directly? I would suggest you ask Him for wisdom if you haven't already. Meanwhile, no matter how you feel or what you believe, my thoughts and prayers will be with you.

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

There you go. This is much better advice.

The best advice that Ilene need to get back to the Bible and stop relying on emotions \ gut feelings \ on some inner voice revelation advice. Most of the advice from people here do not confine God's wisdom soley to the Bible.

So what if Ilene believes He exists, so does Satan. "without faith it is impossible to please God" and "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." It is not God's will to be an agnostic, nor encourage one to be that, nor to be saved by works or by a co-savior. No prayers will go answered by the true God from people who confesses to be agnostic. God doesn't answer prayers from sincere agnostic and prayers to a non triune God doesn't get answered by the true God.




Definition of "agnostic" (Websters)

• a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Ilene claims she is becoming agnostic.... so by her open confession Jesus says:

Mark 7:18
“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’?

Matthew 15:18
" But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ "

Luke 8:12
" Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."

Isaiah 35:8
And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

I agree that telling someone that "being agnostic is entering a new stage of spiritual maturity" is horribly poor spiritual advice. Of course it does not sound like it is advice, but rather people deliberatly leading someone in the wrong direction.

Wrong by whose' standards, Finn? Both you and the Church obviously have a pre-determined objective and bias, wouldn't you agree? I mean, how else could you both exsist, without that bias?

I found my freedom, both physical and intellectual, through a process of careful, intelligent and open-minded investigation and philosophical examination. There was never any elements of evil, of mis-direction or dishonesty in my efforts or the answers I received from the intensely honest and highly knowledgeable people I sought out. (Well, that and three science and one engineering degree of course...)

Rather, and sadly, that sort of orchestrated deceit and purposeful mis-direction came solely from the Christian side, they constantly trying to "re-capture" my "lost soul!" by essentially whatever means they could, including fear-mongering about hell and my loss of God as a spiritual friend and mentor, etc. etc. etc..

As they saw my relentless progress away from the church and my past faith, they became ever more deceitful and frantic, alternately promising me special treatment by God and the church while simultaneously promising me eternal damnation and a life that would devolve into sin and debauchery.

(Hmmm... that should have happened by now, wouldn't you think? I mean, some 40 years later? Instead, I'm free as a bird intellectually and spiritually, and happy with my life of honesty and integrity.)

(And, BTW, that freedom is exactly what Irene will now happily experience.)

All the indictments and dishonest threat/promises rang like a cracked bell and eventually [taking me about 10 - 12 years, in fact...] I was able to break free and see the brighter, more honest light.

Praise my own independent mind, I say!

Again, welcome, Irene! On reading some of your posts, and seeing that glimmer of honest & sincere interest in the facts, I knew you had it in you!

(And I wish I could give you about 1200+ rep-points. Mod's: a special case situation request for those extra points, please?)

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

I've been fighting this.......truly, I have. I changed my belief to UR, which sounded more reasonable to me and completely scriptural but now....and for quite a while.....I just can't do it anymore. I don't believe myself and I can't convince myself otherwise. I don't buy the Bible anymore, it's so contradictory and backward and there are some posts in another thread that finally prompted me to admit this. I see no evidence for belief, none at all.

When I really get down to the brass tax, all the arguments are just more indication to me that none of us really knows what we are talking about, and some of us don't know what to believe. I leave this open for discussion but I'm telling you, I just don't know anymore.

I have to take off, but feel free to comment however you see fit. I'll respond eventually.

I told you this would happen, eventually. You know this means you are TRULY being led of the Spirit.

The EXACT same thing happened to me, when God revealed I must first SHAKE the dust off the OLD arguments, and get back to basics and LET HIM TEACH you.

I suspect the DOTL will be back, but in a different fashion then we are used to.

I shall pray for the Spirit to continue leading you down the right path.

[rodgertutt]

Knowing Ilene by her contributions to this forum, I would say that my contribution is inseparably connected to the OP.

On his journey to his belief in UR, George MacDonald said
"Doubt can be a tool in God's hand wielded, in the lives of those who allow it, for the strengthening, not the destruction of faith."

[saved33]

John 20
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

I told you this would happen, eventually. You know this means you are TRULY being led of the Spirit.

The EXACT same thing happened to me, when God revealed I must first SHAKE the dust off the OLD arguments, and get back to basics and LET HIM TEACH you.

I suspect the DOTL will be back, but in a different fashion then we are used to.

I shall pray for the Spirit to continue leading you down the right path.

Agnosticism is not going down the right path.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Agnosticism is not going down the right path.

Did she say there was no God?

To learn something is not to try and relearn, but to start anew.

And how do you know it isn't the right path? It was the path I was led down, so am I also on the wrong path?? What saith you?

[northstar22]

Ilene, I've recently gone down a similar path, moving gradually from fundamentalism to atheism over a period of several years. Losing your faith is really tough, but it gets better. I still don't have everything figured out, but I can say that I don't think there is any way I could go back to religion. Stay strong .

Saved33, Twin.Spin, and other fundamentalists:

You say that the Bible is the only means by which to know God. So my question for you is, how do you know the Bible is true?

[Huckleberry3911948]

me too. a long stint of prosperity does that to me. a million choices every day.
but lately its been rough. amazing how that makes me more spiritually minded.