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Thanks for your reply. I wasn't really speaking about your not responding (not everyone responds to posts). I just thought you had asked certain questions that I wondered if I had addressed even a little bit.
But regarding the fact that God takes us from a spiritually dead state and makes us alive...this would have to be God's work, alone. Any result or manifestation of this would be a different matter.
If once God gives us a new heart (with which we can now believe), or gives us a new spirit (with which we can now truly receive the gospel message unto salvation), then we will be able to "come" and "believe" and "repent" and "take the water of life freely", and so on.
The command, in effect, goes out to all. But only those whom God has enabled will take heed. This is how God distinguishes His people. The free will issue really has to be gauged in the light of this information. Unless we see that God must regenerate us, we will technically credit ourselves with making the right decision. If we are dead, such a thing could never be possible.
I sincerely believe that the account of the raising of Lazarus is an uncanny picture of how God gives life to a dead sinner. The parallel is exactly the same. Unless God enables us by giving us that life, we will remain dead and unresponsive.
Some feel that the new heart, the new spirit, the being "born again" all comes after we choose to "accept" Christ. To believe this way effectively makes us sovereign, and then God simply follows our lead. The simple biblical fact of our being "dead in trespasses and sins" is enought to allow us to believe that we are incapable of choosing God of our own (natural) free will. If I am dead I can do nothing of myself. But if God makes me alive, then everything changes, and the responses seen from me are simply the result of what God has first done in me.
We have to wonder what is meant by this "good work" that God has begun in us that He promises to complete until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). This brings to mind (for me) where Hebrews 12:2 refers to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith". It may not seem so, but if the bottom line in our believing on Christ unto salvation is our free choice to accept or reject, then we, perhaps unwittingly, presume to take credit for making the right choice...as opposed to giving God all the credit and all the glory for any and every aspect of our salvation
4. It really isn't about what we might feel God is "allowed" to do. The plain biblical reality is that we are "dead", spiritually speaking. Our will, by nature, will not seek after God on God's terms. The best that we could do is to go through the motions for a while. But until God starts things for us, as it were, we will never, nor could ever, exercise our wills to repent and believe the Gospel. By nature we are opposed to this truth, and cannot receive or embrace it unto salvation.
5. Yes, it is God who saves us. Our response to the Gospel call is simply the result of what God has first done in and for us.
We are all spiritually dead by nature. No one can say that they exercised their free will and "accepted" Christ, where my next-door neighbor didn't. It is not ultimately my choice that saves me. Salvation is entirely of the Lord. And if I come to faith in Christ after hearing the Gospel, it was only because God has inclined me so...because He has first taken me from that dead state and made me alive, towhere I can now respond and take heed.
Your post does uphold the idea of God being completely sovereign in salvation, outside of any contribution from man.
I feel this is a biblically sound position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310
Is your Scripture reference a response to my comment on our not contributing anything to our salvation?
If so, kindly advise/explain, and I will clarify my statement.
Thanks.
Yes, I was agreeing on your correct understanding of God being sovereign.
God is completely sovereign and that it's also within his sovereignty to reject those who rejects Him.
If only you knew God's heart and how precious you are to Him .
I am just blessed that He notices me at all...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
The Lord your God is in the midst of you, a Mighty One, a Savior [Who saves]! He will rejoice over you with joy; He will rest [in silent satisfaction] and in His love He will be silent and make no mention [of past sins, or even recall them]; He will exult over you with singing.
Zephaniah 3:17
Why do folks like to take verses that are specifically meant for the Israelites and aplly them generally?...
JAA2310;21664954]1. Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. But until God "quickens" us (or makes us alive) that hearing will fall on deaf ears. If we start out dead, we must be made alive. Until we are made alive, we do not have "ears to hear", nor a "heart" to believe or understand. There's a reason why God tells us that "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". To suggest that we choose to believe before we have been made alive is essentially a contradiction in terms. If I am "dead", I can make no response, whatsoever.
2. The Bible makes reference to both believing and understanding with the heart. But we're also told in 1 Corinthians 2:14 (let me cite it again) that "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
How are we to understand this verse in light of what you have been sharing? We cannot receive this truth unto salvation unless God first enables us...until He "quickens" us...until He gives us a new heart and a new spirit.
If our original ("natural") heart were OK, then why would He have had to give us a new one? Isn't our heart, by nature, said to be "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"? And, again, why did God declare what He did in 1 Cor 2:14?
Good Morning JAA,
Let me say how much I appreciate the time you take with your posts. I am grateful for someone such as yourself, who is willing to discuss this topic in a non-personal, non-confrontational manner. Even though we disagree, I respect your sincerity and have no doubt that you love the Lord every bit as much as I do.
I don't know how much of your post I can respond to. It was a long one. I have a lot to say about 1 Corinthians 2:14, so I'm not sure how much of the rest of your post I can address.
Let me start by answering your very last question above. "If our original ("natural") heart were OK, then why would He have had to give us a new one?" The answer is very simple. He had to give us a new heart because we sinned.
JAA, you continue to say that we inherit Adam's sin. The Bible does not say this anywhere. If it does, then please provide the scripture. We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin, not the sin.
Ez. 18:20The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
We are created in the image of God. We are His offspring, therefore, we cannot be born with sin. We are told that the one who sins will die, and that we will not share the guilt of the parent anymore than we will share in their righteousness.
"6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
James 3:9 "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
Will you deny that we are created in God's image?
1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged"
This does not mean that unregenerated people cannot understand spiritual things until God, in some independent action, opens their hearts, or regenerates them.
Anyone who has common sense and can read will be able to explain Genesis 1:1 as well as most christians can. If regenerated people can understand every spiritual thing, then there should be 100% agreement on all scriptures by christians, and we know this is not the case.
If unregenerated people cannot understand spiritual things, and are totally depraved, then how do you account for the goodness of Cornelius, or anyone for that matter? How do we account for all the good things non-christians do? How could Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the Law?" (Romans 2:14) Can you answer these questions for me?
What about the first conversion case in Acts 2? All the Jews were totally incapable of listening to the Spirit through Peter according to Calvin. Yet Peter preached and "they heard this" (Acts 2:37) and they cried "what shall we do?
Have they already been regenerated, made alive in Christ, had their sins forgiven? How is it that they were able to HEAR? This is a question that must be answered by anyone who ascribes to calvinism. If they've already been regenerated, then they have already received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yet, hear what Peter says:
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Why would people who have already been regenerated be told to REPENT? Repent of what? If they've been regenerated already, they have no sins to repent of.
SAVE YOURSELVES! Why tell these people to save themselves if they've aleady been regenerated?
The bottom line JAA is Peter preached and THEY HEARD THIS AND ASKED WHAT SHALL WE DO? THEY HEARD AND WERE PIERCED TO THE HEART!
I see two very distinct and different images within man. The natural man (the flesh and it's nature), that part dying in Adam, bears the image of Adam.
And, the image of God, represented by His kingdom, that also is within you, but cannot be seen or entered into by man until born of the Spirit:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
This I would agree with you on this...However, I believe it is limited to those that Hawyaw has predestined...I theorize that this is the 'devine' spark that is within the DNA of the predestined that is programmed to become activated upon 'hearing' the Gospel Call at a predetermined time...
Many modern translations have changed this to read "in your midst", obscuring and distorting the truth concerning the image of God, ie: His Kingdom, within.
However, Paul tells us not to know any man after the flesh (the image of Adam):
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.[/quote]
Yes, I was agreeing on your correct understanding of God being sovereign.
God is completely sovereign and that it's also within his sovereignty to reject those who rejects Him.
Isn't it also within His sovereignty to give us free will to choose or reject Him?
If one has the ability to reject, then he also has the ability to accept.
Please provide a scripture that says we inherit Adam's sin.
Please provide a scripture that says God chooses some for salvation and other for eternal destruction.
Still waiting for you to respond. I have searched the thread and have found no response from you to this post. You asked where in scripture does it state we are created in God's image. I provided you with the scriptures. Are you not answering me because you are unwilling to admit you were wrong?
[quote=Richard1965;21652786]
Richard, I noticed you didn't bother to address my post #154. I would appreciate an answer. You also didn't address post #161.
Originally Posted by Richard1965 Where in Scripture does it state that WE are created in Hawyaw's Image?...Outside of Adam and Eve that is...
************************************************** ***********************************************
The image of God continued after the fall. (Genesis 9:6)
Mankind = Everybody
"6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
James 3:9 "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
Okay Richard, let's see if you're big enough to admit you may have been wrong on this one point.
Katie
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