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Nope...you can find references to it in all of those books. I'm assuming you're a good enough scholar to go find it.
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Matthew 23:23 (although Luke 11:42 says the same thing): "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay titheof mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
Feel free.
Did Jesus say that to you? Or to the Scribes and Pharisees living under the Mosaic Law?
Nope...you can find references to it in all of those books. I'm assuming you're a good enough scholar to go find it.
Yes, and some of those references date to prior to the time of the Mosaic law, meaning it was practiced prior to the time of Moses.
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Did Jesus say that to you? Or to the Scribes and Pharisees living under the Mosaic Law?
He said it to the Jews (the Pharisees were Jews; I'm assuming you know that). The Jews were the only people He was personally teaching His gospel to, but His apostles would later teach it to the Gentiles. He didn't have a different gospel for one group than He for the other. He said we should continue paying tithes and offerings but focus on what He described as "weightier matters." If you choose to interpret His words differently, that's fine with me. I'm not telling you or anyone else to tithe, and this thread isn't even supposed to be about whether or not we should tithe, but about how tithing funds should be used. So why don't we just stick to the subject.
Yes, and some of those references date to prior to the time of the Mosaic law, meaning it was practiced prior to the time of Moses.
And some weren't.
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He said it to the Jews (the Pharisees were Jews; I'm assuming you know that). The Jews were the only people He was personally teaching His gospel to, but His apostles would later teach it to the Gentiles.
what was the Gospel he preached to them? I think that before we go any further, we need to establish whether or not he was actually teaching a Gospel to them or not.
no way my church gives 1/3 to the poor no way.
btw american poor and french poorare very different.
here poor means cable, cell phone, $100 sneakers and car and never cooking.
btw almost forgot thrift store cloths are out of the question.
... , but His apostles would later teach it to the Gentiles.
Oh, that that case, do you have any Chapter and Verse for anywhere that Jesus' Disciples taught such a doctrine?
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... He said we should continue paying tithes and offerings but focus on what He described as "weightier matters." If you choose to interpret His words differently, that's fine with me. I'm not telling you or anyone else to tithe, and this thread isn't even supposed to be about whether or not we should tithe, but about how tithing funds should be used. So why don't we just stick to the subject.
The subject here is the tithe and this notion of 1/3.
Now are you submitting that Jesus taught to tithe of forbidden things?
Or are you suggesting that we stick strictly to Biblical tithes?
Oh, that that case, do you have any Chapter and Verse for anywhere that Jesus' Disciples taught such a doctrine?
No, I don't, but I believe that since He did, they probably did, too. I have yet to have anybody produce a chapter and verse in which the disciples taught that tithing was no longer required of us. The fact of the matter is that we don't have a complete record of everything that was taught, either by Jesus Christ himself or by His disciples.
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Now are you submitting that Jesus taught to tithe of forbidden things? Or are you suggesting that we stick strictly to Biblical tithes?
Neither. I'm suggesting that we give ten percent of our annual increase to the Church as a tithe and anything beyond that that we can afford to give. Of course I don't suggest that anyone tithe unless they can do so freely and willingly; I am willing to accept the fact that some people believe the law has been rescinded. I tithe because I believe it's something I should do. It's as simple as that.
Except of course this is all without any proof that Jesus taught any such thing.
The one-third thing!
And the tithing of forbidden things part.
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... I have yet to have anybody produce a chapter and verse in which the disciples taught that tithing was no longer required of us. The fact of the matter is that we don't have a complete record of everything that was taught, either by Jesus Christ himself or by His disciples.
Yes, that makes sense.
We have no proof that Jesus did not violate God's commandments, therefore Jesus must have.
Since we can now state that Jesus did this [through no proof whatsoever] we can also state without doubt that the Disciples also did it.
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... I'm suggesting that we give ten percent of our annual increase to the Church as a tithe and anything beyond that that we can afford to give. Of course I don't suggest that anyone tithe unless they can do so freely and willingly; I am willing to accept the fact that some people believe the law has been rescinded. I tithe because I believe it's something I should do. It's as simple as that.
Supersoul, all churches have fallible humans. We don't attend any church and we choose what our money goes to. We discern different ministries and organizations and give our humble, hard-earned money only to those that we are confident are using it, literally and truly to the work of the real, Living God.
I'm not clear on why you say 1/3 of tithing is to be given to help the poor. Could you explain how you came up with that figure?
Although it's already right in the OP - I'll post it again:
"At the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28,29
One year out of every 3 years = 1/3
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Wow. If I were so distrustful of how my contributions were being used, I wouldn't be paying tithing at all.
That's right! If members were being truly good stewards of their tithes, they would only pay tithes to an organization that displays good stewardship through financial transparency & giving 1/3 of TITHES to the poor, as divinely instructed.
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From what I know about your church, I believe it does more to help the poor (on a per capita basis) than almost any church in the world today.
Please cite comparisons of charitable giving of this church with that of other churches.
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You should be proud of its work instead of criticising it.
That's what they teach you to say. That's part of the problem - if I "criticized" this openly, I'd be ex-communicated.
There is NO accountability - from church leaders, especially financially.
Hiding tithes is wrong. All religious organizations should show financial transparency.
If you or your family were one of the almost 1,000,000,000 starving to death, you might be more likely to criticize too.
"For there is no man that doeth anything in secret, & he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world... The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." -John 7:4, 7
"And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the houstops, & their secret acts shall be revealed." -D&C 1:3
We owe it to our suffering brothers & sisters who deserve more than just carelessly, "trusting" a religious organization that carefully & suspiciously hides it's finances.
"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." -Proverbs 31: 8-9
Your church comprises .2% of the world's population. For its small size, it does an disproportionate amount of good in this world. Your church's Humanitarian Service ships about 12 million pounds of shoes and clothing, 1 million hygiene kits, and 1 million pounds of medical supplies to relieve suffering in more than 100 countries every year. This is all done with no strings attached.
Yeah, I watched a documentary on used free clothes that were shipped over to poor areas & how it put many people out of business because they coudn't compete with "free."
The church & especially it's volunteer members - who pay for themselves to go on humanitarian missions & do works as mentioned above... do a lot of good. I know that some became frustrated with trying to get projects (like water wells) approved from church financial headquarters - it was like pulling teeth to get them financed from the church. Some of these "humanitarian missionaries" quit serving the church & instead work with charities that are more effective.
Part of the reason why the church has so many resources to fund so many projects is because it has over 14,000,000 members who donate tithes & other donations. In fact, even the poorest members are encouraged to pay tithing - & considered "temple worthy" if they do & not temple worthy if they don't. It doesn't take much to realize that tithes from even 1/2 of 14,000,000 is alot! When finances are kept secret we don't know, but it is estimated that less than 1% of this church's income is spent to help the poor.
2 problems:
1. Dishonest - hiding finances - keeping them secret.
2. Likely possibility that church leaders are robbing the poor by not giving them the 1/3 of tithes... given, since they own so many corporations & that on the donations slip - tithing is a separate entry from "fast offering" and "humanitarian aid."
Last edited by SuperSoul; 11-23-2011 at 11:27 PM..
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