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Old 12-07-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Wouldn't they also go to Hell if they didn't believe in Christ? How many babies do you know who believe in Christ? (Feel free to include baptized ones in your count. )
Essentially, Lutherans believe that faith is a gift given by God, and that baptism is the means by which infants/small children receive that gift.
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Old 12-07-2011, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Essentially, Lutherans believe that faith is a gift given by God, and that baptism is the means by which infants/small children receive that gift.
Really? I didn't know that. So Lutherans believe in infant baptism, not for repentence but as the means by which they are given faith? Thanks for the information, Pleroo. (I'm assuming you're speaking as a Lutheran. Is that correct?)
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Old 12-07-2011, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Really? I didn't know that. So Lutherans believe in infant baptism, not for repentence but as the means by which they are given faith? Thanks for the information, Pleroo. (I'm assuming you're speaking as a Lutheran. Is that correct?)
I'm speaking as someone who was born and bred in the Lutheran church, was baptized at 2 weeks of age, life-long member of that denomination, well-studied in it's doctrines, and had all of my infants baptized. I also speak as someone who no longer considers myself Lutheran.

Here's a snippet from a Lutheran church:

Quote:
Furthermore, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he who believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). According to Jesus, ANYONE who does not believe in Him will be damned. Jesus makes no exception for infants. Babies will not be saved without faith in Jesus. Parents who think they are placing their children under God's grace by "dedicating" them are deceiving themselves. The only dedication that the New Testament knows of is the "dedication" that take place via baptism. That is why infants should be baptized. Like everyone else, they desperately need forgiveness. If infants die before they believe in Jesus, they will be eternally condemned. They, like everyone else, need to be baptized so that they can be born again. Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). We believe that baptism is God's special means of grace for children by which He causes them to be born again. To keep them from baptism is to keep them from forgiveness and to endanger them with damnation.

http://www.orlutheran.com/trinfbap.html
So, Phazelwood, Lutherans do own up to the implications of their doctrine. AND YET, when faced with the death of infants in their own families who had not been baptized (eg. stillborn, miscarriages) my experience is that they fall back on the belief that God is merciful ... to THEIR babies, at any rate.

Last edited by Pleroo; 12-07-2011 at 06:00 PM.. Reason: forgot to include the link
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Furthermore, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he who believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). According to Jesus, ANYONE who does not believe in Him will be damned. Jesus makes no exception for infants. Babies will not be saved without faith in Jesus. Parents who think they are placing their children under God's grace by "dedicating" them are deceiving themselves. The only dedication that the New Testament knows of is the "dedication" that take place via baptism. That is why infants should be baptized. Like everyone else, they desperately need forgiveness. If infants die before they believe in Jesus, they will be eternally condemned. They, like everyone else, need to be baptized so that they can be born again. Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). We believe that baptism is God's special means of grace for children by which He causes them to be born again. To keep them from baptism is to keep them from forgiveness and to endanger them with damnation.
Okay, I'm confused and honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. The above paragraph probably makes total sense to you, but it leaves me with some questions. Are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, but the baby does not grow up to be a believer in Jesus Christ, he will be damned? Or are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, this baptism assures that he will have the faith required to believe in Christ? Or are you saying something different entirely? Also -- if you don't mind saying -- where did you go when you left the Lutheran faith? Non-denominational Christianity or something else?
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, I'm confused and honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. The above paragraph probably makes total sense to you, but it leaves me with some questions. Are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, but the baby does not grow up to be a believer in Jesus Christ, he will be damned? Or are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, this baptism assures that he will have the faith required to believe in Christ? Or are you saying something different entirely? Also -- if you don't mind saying -- where did you go when you left the Lutheran faith? Non-denominational Christianity or something else?
To be clear, I am speaking as someone who no longer believes these things. But, Lutherans believe that a baby who has been baptized but grows up and rejects their faith (like me) will be damned to eternal torment. However, until and unless that infant grows up and rejects their faith, baptism assures them of salvation.

Edit: Oh, missed your last question. I didn't go anywhere. I'm sitting in the pew among all the chosen ones.

Last edited by Pleroo; 12-07-2011 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
To be clear, I am speaking as someone who no longer believes these things. But, Lutherans believe that a baby who has been baptized but grows up and rejects their faith (like me) will be damned to eternal torment. However, until and unless that infant grows up and rejects their faith, baptism assures them of salvation.
Thanks for the explanation.

Quote:
Edit: Oh, missed your last question. I didn't go anywhere. I'm sitting in the pew among all the chosen ones.
Oh dear! I hope they don't discover you!
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks for the explanation.
You're welcome.

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Oh dear! I hope they don't discover you!
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, but the baby does not grow up to be a believer in Jesus Christ, he will be damned?
Yes... that is what the Missouri (LCMS) \ Wisconsin (WELS) \ Evangelical Lutheran (ELS) plus other affiliated Lutheran Church bodies located around the world teach.

If a person dies as an unbeliever, whether once baptized or not, that person is tragically lost, not saved. Baptism gives saving faith, but unless that faith is preserved in life through application of the gospel in Word and Sacrament, the faith will die and does the person no good.

As Jesus said:
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post

Or are you saying that if parents have their baby baptized, this baptism assures that he will have the faith required to believe in Christ?
If the baptized sinner retains saving faith, he or she will retain the gift of salvation and inherit heaven. But this is different than saying baptism guarantees heaven. Baptism is Godís way of beginning or enriching a lifelong relationship, but it remains vital that the faith given be nurtured and strengthened through the gospel aside from baptism. This is why, when children are baptized, we normally urge parents and others to include the children in family devotions, train them to read Scripture at home as well as participate in public worship and Sunday school.

A baptized person is not to be considered a believer if he was once baptized but has neglected the gospel ever since. To think that baptism guarantees the preserving of faith for a lifetime is unwise presumption involving a misunderstanding of how the Spirit works.
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Old 12-08-2011, 06:56 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,676,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I'm speaking as someone who was born and bred in the Lutheran church, was baptized at 2 weeks of age, life-long member of that denomination, well-studied in it's doctrines, and had all of my infants baptized. I also speak as someone who no longer considers myself Lutheran.

Here's a snippet from a Lutheran church:



So, Phazelwood, Lutherans do own up to the implications of their doctrine. AND YET, when faced with the death of infants in their own families who had not been baptized (eg. stillborn, miscarriages) my experience is that they fall back on the belief that God is merciful ... to THEIR babies, at any rate.

Well, I know that there are baptismal services for infants in some sects, but that snippet says nothing about the unborn who are also humans who if they die, died without either baptism or believing. I also find a contrast between printed denominational doctrine and an individuals willingness to admit such things and I typically find that most people do not really believe such a thing in the first place.
Moderator cut: delete

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-08-2011 at 07:57 AM.. Reason: top[c is not the Lutheran Church
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:30 AM
 
14,950 posts, read 7,506,293 times
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[quote=Phazelwood;22031566]Well, I know that there are baptismal services for infants in some sects, but that snippet says nothing about the unborn who are also humans who if they die, died without either baptism or believing. I also find a contrast between printed denominational doctrine and an individuals willingness to admit such things and I typically find that most people do not really believe such a thing in the first place.

Moderator cut: orphaned
No, the snippet didn't specifically address the unborn, but it does say that ANYONE who dies without believing in Jesus is damned, including infants... that would include unborn infants. But, as you said (and I have personally experienced) their is an unwillingness for individuals to actually embrace that in their own lives, with their own babies (or babies of fellow believers) who have died prior to being baptized. I would say, however, that there is more of a willingness to accept that NON-believers' babies will be damned, in my experience.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-08-2011 at 07:57 AM..
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