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Do you have an explanation for how life came about then?
That is irrelevant to the question at hand. Again, learn what words mean.
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I say you reject God in lieu of your own religion. That isn't on topic? Besides...you come into our forum and then you whine when you get called on it? Seriously?
Weak.
It would be on topic, except that what you say is wrong. I haven't rejected god yet, because I don't believe there is one to reject. What we could talk about is whether I would reject an Abrahamic God if one showed up. I would. We could keep talking about why I would and why you wouldn't. That would be very on topic. Would you like to discuss that more?
And I'm not whining. I'm simply pointing out that you don't know what words mean.
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You seem to be rather outspoken about the superiority of your religion to our's. Seems like proseletyzing to me....
Where have I spoken about the superiority of my lack of religion? Again, all I've done is discuss whether or not I would reject god if he came to me, and given you basic definitions. I have not, in any way, suggested that my belief system is better than any one else's, nor have I actually tried to deconvert anyone.
I'm an atheist, so I can't speak from the point of view of a believer, but I thought I'd chime in anyway.
If I did find out that the god of Abrahamic religions is true in some way, I would still not submit to him, even though he is the creator of all things. I don't see why being the creator of all things automatically grants him the right to be submitted to. Due to the (in my view) atrocities he had committed against his creation, I'd argue that he is worthy of nothing but spurning.
I guess I don't understand the point of view that "creator of all" should immediately be revered. Even the creator would have to prove his worth.
What if our existance on earth was really just an illusion or like a person plopped inside a video game and our purpose was to experience suffering?
What if where we came from was perfect? Would you believe in God then if this was true?
Hey folks, June has had to delete an awful lot of off topic posts. That's simply not a good thing. So for the sake of the OP and the individual who started this thread, let's have it on topic so that it stays open, OKAY????
What if our existance on earth was really just an illusion or like a person plopped inside a video game and our purpose was to experience suffering?
What if where we came from was perfect? Would you believe in God then if this was true?
I would still find fault with the creator in this scenario. In the end, the "simulated" suffering would have been just as real to us as, well, "real" suffering. In the end, from the viewpoint of those suffering, it is as painful either way.
And I would also question the validity of a creation where the purpose was to simply suffer before experiencing joy. That seems needlessly cruel to me, but perhaps you can expand on that and show me why that would be a good thing?
I would still find fault with the creator in this scenario. In the end, the "simulated" suffering would have been just as real to us as, well, "real" suffering. In the end, from the viewpoint of those suffering, it is as painful either way.
And I would also question the validity of a creation where the purpose was to simply suffer before experiencing joy. That seems needlessly cruel to me, but perhaps you can expand on that and show me why that would be a good thing?
Well, how can you know what joy is without the contrast of suffering? In that sense, suffering is a necessary evil. God, in order to manifest his goodness, must have opposition, don't you think. That's the only way I can look at suffering -- a necessary evil (but not so necessary that we, the children of God should ever add to it - which I see as crucifying Christ again and again when we choose to hurt others).
Well, how can you know what joy is without the contrast of suffering? In that sense, suffering is a necessary evil. God, in order to manifest his goodness, must have opposition, don't you think. That's the only way I can look at suffering -- a necessary evil (but not so necessary that we, the children of God should ever add to it - which I see as crucifying Christ again and again when we choose to hurt others).
Well, agreed that without suffering it would make joy less, well, joyful. Where I would take offense is that God, in this situation, would be capable of creating a world without suffering. He would have access to a true paradise, but would keep the gates locked. That to me would be the cruel part.
Keep in mind that I'm coming from the viewpoint that life on Earth is fleeting and this is all there is. Suffering, from my viewpoint, does exist, and this existence does make joy all the more joyful. But I wouldn't suggest that this is a perfect world. I'd want to work for the elimination of as much needless suffering as I could, because that is part of what makes life worth living - making the world a better place.
If, though, I die and find out that there is a better place, and that we were all kept away from it for no discernible reason? That's when I'd reject that god. (And I don't buy the idea that we would need the suffering in order to understand the joy of the perfection that followed. If it is truly perfection, we wouldn't need any background to understand it - it'd be perfect.)
Well, agreed that without suffering it would make joy less, well, joyful. Where I would take offense is that God, in this situation, would be capable of creating a world without suffering. He would have access to a true paradise, but would keep the gates locked. That to me would be the cruel part.
Keep in mind that I'm coming from the viewpoint that life on Earth is fleeting and this is all there is. Suffering, from my viewpoint, does exist, and this existence does make joy all the more joyful. But I wouldn't suggest that this is a perfect world. I'd want to work for the elimination of as much needless suffering as I could, because that is part of what makes life worth living - making the world a better place.
If, though, I die and find out that there is a better place, and that we were all kept away from it for no discernible reason? That's when I'd reject that god. (And I don't buy the idea that we would need the suffering in order to understand the joy of the perfection that followed. If it is truly perfection, we wouldn't need any background to understand it - it'd be perfect.)
You would reject God for creating heaven and earth? For having the audacity to be God without your permission? You sound like you want a God that won't make you feel small or remind you of your human limitations in any way. You'll never progress spiritually if you cannot humble yourself and admit that God is greater than you.
You would reject God for creating heaven and earth? For having the audacity to be God without your permission? You sound like you want a God that won't make you feel small or remind you of your human limitations in any way. You'll never progress spiritually if you cannot humble yourself and admit that God is greater than you.
No, I would reject God for creating an arbitrary distinction between the two, and then allowing for 6,000 plus of suffering, strife, warfare, disease outbreaks, etc, and all the while never really letting us know what his actual intentions were. (I'm going under the assumption that if one religion, and only one religion is right, then that means that billions of people are wrong - and save for relying on his converts to spread the word, he's happy to let billions of people to just continue being wrong.)
In the end just because God is greater than me doesn't mean he deserves my love or adoration. I guess he'd just have to have some really good explanations.
If God really is as described by a religion we have here on Earth, then I doubt he could convince me that he hasn't been playing a cruel joke on humanity.
(The one Abrahamic religion I wouldn't mind, however, would be that of the Gnostic Christians. At least there's a reason for that God to be such a monster.)
And as to your last point - I'm not really on any spiritual path. I'd say that I'm on a path for truth - which many spiritualists would say they're on too. We are all looking for truth in our own ways, but mine wouldn't be a spiritual one.
Hey folks, June has had to delete an awful lot of off topic posts. That's simply not a good thing. So for the sake of the OP and the individual who started this thread, let's have it on topic so that it stays open, OKAY????
Thanks!
Thanks. I think this is a difficult topic for some here.
I say this: One must either accept God as He is or say the OT incorrect. To say the OT is incorrect basically means the Bible is incorrect and all that implies. To accept God, regardles, is an act of submission to the Creator of the universe.
Personally I will not make excuses or try to explain away the rough stuff in the OT. Is scripture inspired? I think so. If I were going to fake the biblical writings, I would sure as heck edit out the rough stuff.
And then there is the fact that Jesus cited the OT. So why in heavens name would He do that if the OT was bunk?
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Originally Posted by Fillmont
In the end just because God is greater than me doesn't mean he deserves my love or adoration. I guess he'd just have to have some really good explanations.
The choice is indeed your's. But so are the consequences of said choice.
No, I would reject God for creating an arbitrary distinction between the two, and then allowing for 6,000 plus of suffering, strife, warfare, disease outbreaks, etc, and all the while never really letting us know what his actual intentions were. (I'm going under the assumption that if one religion, and only one religion is right, then that means that billions of people are wrong - and save for relying on his converts to spread the word, he's happy to let billions of people to just continue being wrong.)
In the end just because God is greater than me doesn't mean he deserves my love or adoration. I guess he'd just have to have some really good explanations.
If God really is as described by a religion we have here on Earth, then I doubt he could convince me that he hasn't been playing a cruel joke on humanity.
(The one Abrahamic religion I wouldn't mind, however, would be that of the Gnostic Christians. At least there's a reason for that God to be such a monster.)
And as to your last point - I'm not really on any spiritual path. I'd say that I'm on a path for truth - which many spiritualists would say they're on too. We are all looking for truth in our own ways, but mine wouldn't be a spiritual one.
I see. Your thinking is man-based. God must redeem Himself to man and not the other way around.
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So for the sake of the OP and the individual who started this thread, let's have it on topic so that it stays open, OKAY????
