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Yes, I'm aware that there is an idea out there that says the two witnesses are the OT and NT. But how could that be? Did the OT die and get ressurrected? The NT only had a brief problem in France I think and then was brought back. I've seen that argument for that interpretation and it is riddled with errors. How does the NY being outlawed in France temporarily translate to both the OT and NT being killed by the Beast in the streets of Jerusalem and then raised (just like Christ) 3 some days later? ???
But I can respect your take on things. But unfortunately, it seems that the spiritual magic and miracles have all ceased for you. Maybe one day something will open your eyes to that...because I have experienced supernatural events first hand (from God) and I know these things happen.
Some Christians cling tightly to what they want to believe, and will never budge no matter what evidence is shown, and some care more about truth than being right or wrong. I don't know where you stand necessarily, but it kind of seems like you've got your world-view all set up and nothing can change it. Is that the way it is? I really think you should be more open to inspiration by the spirit, and not just what you've been taught by men and "orgainized Christianity" of which there are many many versions.
Hi TW,
If you've read the other posts on this thread, there have already been two other opinions of who or what the two witnesses in Revelation are. I don't believe anyone has the correct interpretation of the book of Revelation, me included. I enjoy reading Revelation, and I know God will bless me for reading it. That is a promise He gave to us.
What I believe about Revelation has nothing to do with my salvation. It is my words and deeds that I will be judged by. I know that when Jesus comes again, I have nothing to worry about. I am in Christ. I am a part of His body, the church.
TW, I don't need spiritual magic and supernatural miracles. I have faith. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I'm not suggesting that you don't have faith, but for me, I don't need signs and wonders in order to have faith in God. According to the New Testament, signs were for unbelievers, not believers. When the apostles performed supernatural feats, these things confirmed the word of God. That was the purpose for miracles, and they were done to attract unbelievers. We have no purpose for supernatural proofs today. The Holy Spirit has given us the word. Everything we ever need to know to live a good christian life is written within God's word. There are no new revelations. There is nothing we need to know that hasn't already been written down for us.
Katie we are members of the body of Christ and the body has the gifts spoken below.
4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
It is the SAME SPIRIT that worketh all the gifts sis. If the gifts are gone so to is the SPIRIT.
These scriptures below are used to say that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased in our day.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
But that is not what Paul is saying, it is not until that which is perfect has come these things will cease. We all still know in part and as long as we still know in part these gifts remain. Unless people think they have surpassed Paul in knowledge and wisdom and have come to the place where they know perfectly and am known perfectly then the gifts remain.
Paul states at the time he wrote this "now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"
Obviously that which is perfect had not yet arrived in Paul's life.
Sorry Pneuma, but I disagree with you. Prophecy has ceased, and so has tongues. We have no need of them anymore. We have the complete, perfect will of God written for us in the scriptures.
We can debate this further, but I'm afraid I'm not going to do that on this thread. There are other threads dedicated to spiritual gifts.
If you've read the other posts on this thread, there have already been two other opinions of who or what the two witnesses in Revelation are. I don't believe anyone has the correct interpretation of the book of Revelation, me included. I enjoy reading Revelation, and I know God will bless me for reading it. That is a promise He gave to us.
What I believe about Revelation has nothing to do with my salvation. It is my words and deeds that I will be judged by. I know that when Jesus comes again, I have nothing to worry about. I am in Christ. I am a part of His body, the church.
TW, I don't need spiritual magic and supernatural miracles. I have faith. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I'm not suggesting that you don't have faith, but for me, I don't need signs and wonders in order to have faith in God. According to the New Testament, signs were for unbelievers, not believers. When the apostles performed supernatural feats, these things confirmed the word of God. That was the purpose for miracles, and they were done to attract unbelievers. We have no purpose for supernatural proofs today. The Holy Spirit has given us the word. Everything we ever need to know to live a good christian life is written within God's word. There are no new revelations. There is nothing we need to know that hasn't already been written down for us.
God Bless,
Katie
Katie,
We can put Revelation aside then.
I agree with everything you've said except what I have in bold.
I think you are confusing "prophetic revelations" with "personal revelations". Personal revelations happen all the time. The ability to prophecy is an entirely different thing.
I never needed signs or wonders either. They happened to me because I never asked for them.
Further, I never made the claim that we need to look for "signs and wonders" to be saved. That is something different than personal revelations from the Lord. I don't think the question is whether YOU personally need them, but whether people have those experiences. It seems that because you don't have those experiences, you insist that others also don't.
When others tell you their stories of such things...do you scoff...or would you believe them (in faith), and believe it's possible for them? Would you say it was not of God?
Now if your last statement (underlined) is true...THAT THE WORD IS ALL WE NEED AND NO COMMUNICATION FROM GOD EXISTS OR IS NECESSARY, then what are we to make of all the arguments and division (like on this forum for instance) that have occurred based on "what has been written down for us." If that was all we needed to know...I think we'd be in a lot of trouble...because people can't seem to agree on what it means.
Question: What does this verse mean to you Katie..that Christ spoke: "ask and it will be revealed to you?"
]=pneuma;23121482] Wisdom 15:7 7 For the potter, tempering soft earth, fashioneth every vessel with much labour for our service: yea, of the same clay he maketh both the vessels that serve for clean uses, and likewise also all such as serve to the contrary: but what is the use of either sort, the potter himself is the judge. Romans 9:21 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Pneuma,
I do not see this as Paul quoting from the book of Wisdom. I agree that the themes are the same, but this is not a quote. The book of Wisdom is not an inspired book.
Are you saying that you think the book of Wisdom should have been included in the Bible?
I am somewhat confused by your position concerning the Bible. In many ways, you seem to put a lot of effort into discrediting it. I don't understand that. Maybe I''m wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding the things you write.
I will address what you wrote in a previous post about John 5:39-40 in the morning. I'm too tired to concentrate tonight. I'd forgotten just how tiring being in a classroom with 25 seventh graders every day could be after being away for three years. One more week, and I will be retired again. Woohooo!
"O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you."
I agree with everything you've said except what I have in bold.
I think you are confusing "prophetic revelations" with "personal revelations". Personal revelations happen all the time. The ability to prophecy is an entirely different thing.
I never needed signs or wonders either. They happened to me because I never asked for them.
Further, I never made the claim that we need to look for "signs and wonders" to be saved. That is something different than personal revelations from the Lord. I don't think the question is whether YOU personally need them, but whether people have those experiences. It seems that because you don't have those experiences, you insist that others also don't.
When others tell you their stories of such things...do you scoff...or would you believe them (in faith), and believe it's possible for them? Would you say it was not of God?
Now if your last statement (underlined) is true...THAT THE WORD IS ALL WE NEED AND NO COMMUNICATION FROM GOD EXISTS OR IS NECESSARY, then what are we to make of all the arguments and division (like on this forum for instance) that have occurred based on "what has been written down for us." If that was all we needed to know...I think we'd be in a lot of trouble...because people can't seem to agree on what it means.
Question: What does this verse mean to you Katie..that Christ spoke: "ask and it will be revealed to you?"
Peace,
Randy
Randy,
Please cite the scripture, "ask and it shall be revealed to you," so I can read it in its context. I am not familiar with it. Do you mean, "Ask and it will be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened?"
There is no support in the scriptures for personal revelation.
I have no doubt YOU believe that you have had experiences. No, I would not scoff at someone who claimed to have a supernatural experience because I know they sincerely believe these things are happening.
The scripture says God will send delusions, allowing people to believe a lie.
Randy, this thread is not for the purpose of debating spiritual gifts. There are other threads dedicated to that topic. If not, then maybe you could start one. I would be happy to participate in a thread like that.
I think this thread is about something we CAN agree on, and that is the Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God!
"Behold I stand at the door and knock. And if any man let me in...I will sup with him, and he will sup with me"
This is the Communion that Christ taught. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."
PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS THAT THE SPIRIT DOES NOT DWELL WITHIN US KATIE. PLEASE!!!
And then I will show you all the scriptures that show that it does!
This is off topic Randy, but I will be happy to answer you.
Of course the Holy Spirit dwells in christians. I never said He didn't. I said there are no new revelations today. Everything we need to know to live a good christian life is recorded in the scriptures.
If the Kingdom of God is within you, where do you suppose the tares are located?
What do you think?
(by the way, the kingdom of God is not necessarily strictly within an "individual", but "in your midst" or "among you")
And if Jesus meant to say that the wheat and tares were within a person, why did He say the field in the parable is the world? And that the tares would be cast into a fiery furnace where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth... Words/ideas have teeth?
Last edited by Steph1980; 02-24-2012 at 06:14 PM..
(by the way, the kingdom of God is not necessarily strictly within an "individual", but "in your midst" or "among you")
And if Jesus meant to say that the wheat and tares were within a person, why did He say the field in the parable is the world? And that the tares would be cast into a fiery furnace where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth... Words/ideas have teeth?
In the midst of humanity, collectively!
Although, many have false-teeth.
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One more week, and I will be retired again. Woohooo!
