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No it takes faith to believe that God loves you at your worst and while you are STILL at your worst.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The bible fearing believers like back then and like many today, find this ^^^^^ a hard one to swallow and the only answer they have to it, is to dimiss it as a feel good god. Well let me tell you this sister, everything about God feels good,even his chastisement(for it is for our good)
I need you to clarify what you mean... When you say "you", "we", "our", "us", etc, are you referring to believers or to everyone?
The Scribes and Pharisees were bible fearing believers who boasted they were Abraham's children and yet they rejected what the "Spirit of God' was saying through the man Christ Jesus. Sound familiar ?.
Now Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice", how come the bible fearing believing Scribes and Pharisees never heard is voice ?.
Why did they reject what was in their own bibles ?. Maybe the Christ that showed up wasn't the one they expected. After all he did not come with a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged to speak no more, or the sight of him was so fearful they were in fear and trembling, or if you touched him he burnt you(Does this sound like your Christ ?) Hebrews 12.
Quote:
how come Scribes and Pharisees never heard is voice?.
No need to speculate...John 8:43-45
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Matthew 13:9-15
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
What was the error of the Jews?Romans 9
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The error of the Pharisee / Sadducee was they did not attain the righteousness of faith in Messiah but attempted to seek Justification through the Law.
THEY WERE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES!
Matthew 22:29-30
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Lord Jesus specifically instructed them to..
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Plenty of Scriptures that proclaim the Word of God as the Authority for instruction for the Christian faith.
We aren't to "follow our heart" for instruction
Jeremiah 17:9 The heartis deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?Luke 8:21And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Your fire and brimstone god will always be popular, because it takes faith to believe that is not who He IS.
During chastisement in the age to come, how does this discipline/purifying look...? And why don't UR advocates really ever talk about it or warn people about it or urge repentance from sins to escape God's limited-time wrath?
At least I haven't ever heard any real discussions around that...
Why is it important to warn them when God will just take care of it himself? He is a father and He will not discipline a son or daughter more than He needs to. What would be the point in burning someone forever? After a while it just gets old. But there is a point in disciplining someone in the next age so that they can be refined and then get on the path to become who they are supposed to be. The relationships that we see on this earth between fathers and children is to some degree a microcosm of our relationship with Father God. If we would open our eyes to these things we would realize that our religious dogma doesn't match the relational truth about God.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Matthew 13:9-15
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
What was the error of the Jews?Romans 9
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The error of the Pharisee / Sadducee was they did not attain the righteousness of faith in Messiah but attempted to seek Justification through the Law.
THEY WERE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES!
Matthew 22:29-30
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Lord Jesus specifically instructed them to..
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Plenty of Scriptures that proclaim the Word of God as the Authority for instruction for the Christian faith.
We aren't to "follow our heart" for instruction
Jeremiah 17:9 The heartis deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?Luke 8:21And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
But in their own eyes they were God fearing bible belevers. So what does this tell us ?.
Why is it important to warn them when God will just take care of it himself? He is a father and He will not discipline a son or daughter more than He needs to. What would be the point in burning someone forever? After a while it just gets old. But there is a point in disciplining someone in the next age so that they can be refined and then get on the path to become who they are supposed to be. The relationships that we see on this earth between fathers and children is to some degree a microcosm of our relationship with Father God. If we would open our eyes to these things we would realize that our religious dogma doesn't match the relational truth about God.
Questions for you Solich.....
Why did John the Baptist warn people of God's coming judgement?
"But when he [Jesus] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance."
Why do you refer to unbelievers as sons and daughters of God?
In the broadest and most general sense, perhaps, but NOT in the relational sense at all! Your "relational truth about God" is badly skewed if you think that the promises conditioned on faith are actually not conditioned on anything (except God's "unfailing" love).
How does the Bible describe us before we believed?
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother"
It isn't pretty, but it's true.
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