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The Original Post is clearly asking Universalists to briefly and effectively share what UR is all about. Last time ichecked Finn you were not a universalist.
If you was asked to describe effectively what UR is all about, preferably in a brief sentence or 2 sentences max, what would you say ?.
This pretty much somes up UR for me
*** 20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [i]frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
*** 21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children. Romans 8
The Original Post is clearly asking Universalists to briefly and effectively share what UR is all about. Last time ichecked Finn you were not a universalist.
So what? If you want to have a universalist insider discussion, please do it on a UR board or via PM. If you insist on running a thread on a non-universalist board, then you should not be surprised if non-universalists add their comments.
*** 20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [i]frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
*** 21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children. Romans 8
Yes! Universal reconciliation, clearly spelled out in those two verses!
Originally Posted by Eusebius Steph, this is too easy.
Polycarp did not speak English. Polycarp mose likely used the Greek word "aionios" for "aionios kolasin" or "eonian chastening." It is the chastening pertaining to the eon.
Just because some ignorant translator translated "aionios" as "eternal" does not mean that is what Polycarp meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980
By focusing on one word and what it "most likely" was, you seem to have missed Polycarp's reasoning, which is compelling.
Hi Steph,
I read and re-read what Polycarp said.
Let's look again at the conversation:
"But again the proconsul said to him, "I will cause you to be consumed by
fire, seeing you despise the wild beasts, if you will not repent." But
Polycarp said, "You threaten me with fire which burns for an hour, and
after a little is extinguished, but are ignorant of the fire of the coming
judgment and of eonian punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why do
you wait? Bring forth what you will."
There is the fire Polycarp was threatened with which "burns for an hour." This is contrasted with "fire of the coming judgment and of eonian punishment." No where does he say the fire is unending. He just says "Fire of the coming judgment AND of eonian punishment." So Polycarp was talking about two things: 1. a fire of a coming judgment and 2. the result of that judgment being eonian punishment.
Polycarp must have read Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Thess.1:7-8 where it talks about Christ coming with messengers in flaming fire and then a judgment:
2Th 1:7-8 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, (8) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Let's look again at the conversation:
"But again the proconsul said to him, "I will cause you to be consumed by
fire, seeing you despise the wild beasts, if you will not repent." But
Polycarp said, "You threaten me with fire which burns for an hour, and
after a little is extinguished, but are ignorant of the fire of the coming
judgment and of eonian punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why do
you wait? Bring forth what you will."
There is the fire Polycarp was threatened with which "burns for an hour." This is contrasted with "fire of the coming judgment and of eonian punishment." No where does he say the fire is unending. He just says "Fire of the coming judgment AND of eonian punishment." So Polycarp was talking about two things: 1. a fire of a coming judgment and 2. the result of that judgment being eonian punishment.
Polycarp must have read Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Thess.1:7-8 where it talks about Christ coming with messengers in flaming fire and then a judgment:
2Th 1:7-8 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, (8) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Nowhere is the fire said to be unending.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I actually have a couple of questions for you in light of this....
- How long is "eonian"?
- How long does the fire need to burn in order for God to be considered merciless, wrathful, and a monster unworthy of our faith and worship? Eternity? A couple million years? 10 years?
A lot of CU's I've heard talk about how they "couldn't" worship a God who would torment people for eternity, and that anyone who believes this doesn't understand God's true nature of love, etc. So, how long would be considered an acceptable duration of torment, in order for these CU's to say that it's ok now... God can still maintain His reputation of love. Will God release people from this torment when they repent and turn to Him? If so, who wouldn't repent after 60 seconds in the flames then? What about sin? How serious is sin? Do we actually know how serious it is? Is any sin deserving of even a day of hellfire? I don't think we see how serious sin actually is, because I'm sure that many people would think the punishment doesn't fit the crime... but maybe it does? Just some thoughts.
What do you think, and could you answer these questions from a UR perspective please?
Yes! Universal reconciliation, clearly spelled out in those two verses!
*** 20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [i]frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope
*** 21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
Faith see's beyond and sets us free from the bondage and corruption to see and enter the glorious freedom of knowing and being a child of God.
I actually have a couple of questions for you in light of this....
- How long is "eonian"?
- How long does the fire need to burn in order for God to be considered merciless, wrathful, and a monster unworthy of our faith and worship? Eternity? A couple million years? 10 years?
A lot of CU's I've heard talk about how they "couldn't" worship a God who would torment people for eternity, and that anyone who believes this doesn't understand God's true nature of love, etc. So, how long would be considered an acceptable duration of torment, in order for these CU's to say that it's ok now... God can still maintain His reputation of love. Will God release people from this torment when they repent and turn to Him? If so, who wouldn't repent after 60 seconds in the flames then? What about sin? How serious is sin? Do we actually know how serious it is? Is any sin deserving of even a day of hellfire? I don't think we see how serious sin actually is, because I'm sure that many people would think the punishment doesn't fit the crime... but maybe it does? Just some thoughts.
What do you think, and could you answer these questions from a UR perspective please?
Thanks!
Blessings,
Steph
Hi Steph, I know your question concerning was not addressed to me but I wanted to answer it because I'm a universalist with a very different believe about "eionian" then other universalists. They will tell you it means a "limited duration". However, I have learned that it doesn't mean this. I believe it means a "duration indefinitely continued" (LENNEP - Linguist). Consider the following verse:
KJV
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Both of the bold words are eionian. So the interpretation is that some will go into continued punishment (after all we are still be punished right now) into the next age. While others will go into continued life in the next age (after all some have received the Life of Christ now in the present age).
"none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will"
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Hi Steph, I know your question concerning was not addressed to me but I wanted to answer it because I'm a universalist with a very different believe about "eionian" then other universalists. They will tell you it means a "limited duration". However, I have learned that it doesn't mean this. I believe it means a "duration indefinitely continued" (LENNEP - Linguist). Consider the following verse:
KJV
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Both of the bold words are eionian. So the interpretation is that some will go into continued punishment (after all we are still be punished right now) into the next age. While others will go into continued life in the next age (after all some have received the Life of Christ now in the present age).
An appropriate snippet by Dean Hough
“In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).”.
Dean Hough
A lot of CU's I've heard talk about how they "couldn't" worship a God who would torment people for eternity, and that anyone who believes this doesn't understand God's true nature of love, etc. So, how long would be considered an acceptable duration of torment, in order for these CU's to say that it's ok now... God can still maintain His reputation of love. Will God release people from this torment when they repent and turn to Him? If so, who wouldn't repent after 60 seconds in the flames then?
The problem is the concept of torment as punishment, Steph. It is NOT punishment . . . it is the consequences of the state of mind that each individual has achieved to that point. It is not a belief or attitude they can decide to reject or change at the last minute. It is who they are at that point that causes the inner torment upon realization of the error and evil of their ways in the light and understanding of God's pure love ("refining fire") and the irreversible pain and harm they have caused by it.
Have you ever unthinkingly or inconsiderately or selfishly caused some irreversible harm to someone you loved? You cannot undo it or take it back and the effects are devastating? If not . . . you cannot comprehend even an inkling of what such remorseful "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be like. Nor can you imagine what it will be like to have every single instance during an entire lifetime excruciatingly revealed and made absolutely clear and vivid to you with no chance to undo any of it.
Such inner remorse and pain with the understanding from the perspective of God's pure love will change you . . . but it will take time . . . as much time as the pain and harm you inconsiderately, or selfishly or un-lovingly inflicted over a lifetime on every single person. That is what reaping what YOU sowed MEANS.
Quote:
What about sin? How serious is sin? Do we actually know how serious it is? Is any sin deserving of even a day of hellfire? I don't think we see how serious sin actually is, because I'm sure that many people would think the punishment doesn't fit the crime... but maybe it does? Just some thoughts.
It is as serious as the harm or damage it inflicts and its consequences will be equal in time and inner pain.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-28-2012 at 01:53 PM..
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"none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will"
