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1.) Luke 11:51 'from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.
With that one statement, Jesus swept the entire range of the Old Testament books and endorsed them all.
This endorsement of Scripture takes us all the way from Genesis 4:10 to 2 Chronicles 24:20-21. Chronicles was the last book in the arrangement of the Hebrew Old Testament Canon.
To reference a series of events covered in a book says nothing about the other contents of the book, nor have you yet demonstrated that Jesus isn't speaking figuratively, using those events as an illustration of the nature and severity of the crimes charged to the current generation, which I believe is not far off from what Jesus is doing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
2.) John 10:35 '"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
There are many areas of authority, historical, scientific, legal, for example. I am uncertain as to which areas of authority can be inferred by this scripture here
To reference a series of events covered in a book says nothing about the other contents of the book, nor have you yet demonstrated that Jesus isn't speaking figuratively, using those events as an illustration of the nature and severity of the crimes charged to the current generation, which I believe is not far off from what Jesus is doing here.
There are many areas of authority, historical, scientific, legal, for example. I am uncertain as to which areas of authority can be inferred by this scripture here
I agree - it's a bit silly to use such verses as some sort of "proof-text" for a concept that modern conservatives hold. The biggest flaw in this "from Genesis to Chronicles" is that the canon of Scripture was not even closed at that time. The Septugaint included books and sections of books that would not make it into the Jewish Canon. The idea that "the Bible" was some sort of ongoing, agreed-upon story with specific books was not one that was active during that period ("Okay, Joe - I'm done with this particular book, time to write the next one"). With the differences in content in the various canons, and the variants even within the books in circulation - there wasn't an authoritative "Bible" yet.
True, what we call THE Bible is incomplete
as to the volume of scriptures Jesus had.
As The Dead Sea Scrolls proves it.
But don't expect Pastor's 0f Paul to care about that.
They only care about patting sheep on the head;
after they suit them up in armor to send them out on to every battle field of the world.
For the booty to fill pews and plates. For the kingdom of course.
Just don't expect any Pastures there for entering the rest Jesus gives.
I've often said there should be on going manitory classes
on The Dead Sea Scrolls in every Church.
But that might foil a lot of paid plans to keep up on...
To reference a series of events covered in a book says nothing about the other contents of the book, nor have you yet demonstrated that Jesus isn't speaking figuratively, using those events as an illustration of the nature and severity of the crimes charged to the current generation, which I believe is not far off from what Jesus is doing here.
There are many areas of authority, historical, scientific, legal, for example. I am uncertain as to which areas of authority can be inferred by this scripture here
For anyone interested in the truth, and not someone spouting that everything is one great Allegory, check here.
Start at the Book of Matthew and go through John at least. While there are clearly allegories, metaphors, idioms, types used in scriptures; Adam, Abel, Noah, Jonah, etc are all real people that did real things recorded in Scripture. Jesus declares himself to be God and that all these things written before time are history. Anybody wishing allegorize these things is living in a allegorical fantasy land as this confirmed in Archaelogolgy, Science, legal, etc.
You can find the remains of many of the former lands mentioned in the Biblical text. What it gives us is EVIDENCE that any nation that turns it's back on YHVH God is reduced to a desolate WASTELAND.
Luke 10:25,26 - I find it interesting that when being tested by a Laywer
on inheriting eternal life. Not only did Jesus ask him
what is written in the Law, but what was (his) Reading of it.
Was Jesus asking him what his undestanding of it was?
To reference a series of events covered in a book says nothing about the other contents of the book, nor have you yet demonstrated that Jesus isn't speaking figuratively, using those events as an illustration of the nature and severity of the crimes charged to the current generation, which I believe is not far off from what Jesus is doing here.
You're missing the point entirely. The point is that Jesus' statement, 'from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation'.,(Luke 11:51) covers the Old Testament Canon from Genesis to Zechariah, which was the last book of the Old Testament to be written. Although in our arrangement of the Old Testament, the book of Malachi comes last, in the Hebrew arrangement, the book of Chronicles is last. It was the last of the Old Testament books to be written. Zechariah's death is recorded in 2 Chronicles 24:21.
Excerpt:
Jesus' words indicate an established canon
Snippet:
Another indication from the New Testament that the Tanak was closed by the time of writing, is a passage in the Gospel According to Matthew (mirrored in the Gospel According to Luke), where Jesus speaks of “all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah”5. Clearly Jesus, when beginning his list of the murdered prophets with Abel and ending with Zechariah, is implying the complete history of the Israelites as recorded in the Scriptures. 1way2God.net - Formation of the OT
In Contra Apion, Josephus describes the sacred books of the Jews. Josephus comments that the time during which these books were written extended from Moses to Artaxerxes I, who reigned from from around 465 to 424 B.C. He adds that nothing was ever added to the Canon after the death of Artaxerxes in 424 B.C.
Snippet and link: http://www.askelm.com/restoring/res005.htm“We have not a countless number of books, discordant and arrayed against each other; but only 22 books, containing the history of every age, which are justly accredited as divine. Of these, five belong to Moses, which contain both the laws and the history of the generations of men until his death. This period lacks but little of 3000 years.
Contra Apion 1.8 ¶¶38–42, [emphasis mine]
Josephus was not a believer and had no personal interest in defending the Canon, but only in proving historically the existence of the Canon.
With the completion of Chronicles, there was no more Old Testament Scripture being written. There were no prophets during the so-called 400 silent years between the closing of the Old Testament Canon and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The Old Testament Canon was closed with the book of Chronicles. And Jesus' statement in luke 11:51 recognized this.
The counsel of Jamnia in 90 A.D had no bearing on that fact. The Old Testament Canon was fixed long before Jesus Christ (in His humanity) had been born.
The Apocryphal books were never a part of the Hebrew Scriptures and were never regarded as Scripture by the Jews.
Jesus' statement swept the entire Old Testament recognizing it as Scripture. And as He said in John 10:35, the Scripture (NO Scripture) can be broken. The Bible is the word of God and is inerrant
Quote:
There are many areas of authority, historical, scientific, legal, for example. I am uncertain as to which areas of authority can be inferred by this scripture here
All Scripture is God-breathed and has divine authority. No Scripture can be broken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers
I agree - it's a bit silly to use such verses as some sort of "proof-text" for a concept that modern conservatives hold. The biggest flaw in this "from Genesis to Chronicles" is that the canon of Scripture was not even closed at that time. The Septugaint included books and sections of books that would not make it into the Jewish Canon. The idea that "the Bible" was some sort of ongoing, agreed-upon story with specific books was not one that was active during that period ("Okay, Joe - I'm done with this particular book, time to write the next one"). With the differences in content in the various canons, and the variants even within the books in circulation - there wasn't an authoritative "Bible" yet.
See the above.
Last edited by june 7th; 03-05-2012 at 11:24 AM..
Reason: To adhere to city-data's copyright formatting.
True, what we call THE Bible is incomplete
as to the volume of scriptures Jesus had.
As The Dead Sea Scrolls proves it.
But don't expect Pastor's 0f Paul to care about that.
They only care about patting sheep on the head;
after they suit them up in armor to send them out on to every battle field of the world.
For the booty to fill pews and plates. For the kingdom of course.
Just don't expect any Pastures there for entering the rest Jesus gives.
I've often said there should be on going manitory classes
on The Dead Sea Scrolls in every Church.
But that might foil a lot of paid plans to keep up on...
- Note, I said 'volume of scriptures'.
(I was not addressing volumes of books)
As there was discovered (more scriptures)
to some books of what we call O.T.
Which is not in what we call THE Bible.
An example:
Never before read Psalms till the finding of The Dead Sea Scrolls.
You're missing the point entirely. The point is that Jesus' statement, 'from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation'.,(Luke 11:51) covers the Old Testament Canon from Genesis to Zechariah, which was the last book of the Old Testament to be written.
You have an interesting definition of the word covers. Jesus's statement _addresses_ two murders that in turn are used as _endpoints_ of a _range_ of murders that occured in the same chronological span _covered_ by the the Tanakh that by their actions the people that Jesus is notifying are cmplicit in, not at the level of a _charge_, which would require addressing each and every crime those charged were complicit in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Clearly Jesus, when beginning his list of the murdered prophets with Abel and ending with Zechariah, is implying the complete history of the Israelites as recorded in the Scriptures.
Are there any recorded murders of prophets by the ancestors of the people Jesus was notifying chronologically after Zechariah, but not mentioned in the Tanakh. If so, your case holds more water. Even then it _attests_ to the historical accuracy in depicting those murders, and goes more towards the humans of that time periods asctions, but not motivations, and not to what is recorded as God's action and motivation, though there is somethig to be said that it is an accurate record of the _perception_ of the people of the time's of God's actions and motivations.
At this point, I find myself drawn to point out that despite modern statements that God was punishing mankind at the Tower of Babel, the Tanakh does not say that God was punishing or cursing them, which is significant in light of the Tahakh's deliberate mention that God is punishing, or cursing them everywhere else. The Tanakh clearly states that nothing that mankind sets out to do will fail, consistently translated in a tene that implies it is unchanging, and I believe that causing them to speak different languages and thus causing them to diversify was meant to enhance it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus' statement swept the entire Old Testament recognizing it as Scripture. And as He said in John 10:35, the Scripture (NO Scripture) can be broken. The Bible is the word of God and is inerrant
I'm guessing that despite not qualifying scripture, you believe that only the scripture that you believe that Jesus identified as scripture is referred to here and not Buddhist, Hindu, Muislim, etc, or even perhaps Christian scripture, which I believe that a significant case that all of the above is meant using a different sense of the word broken than you do.
For anyone interested in the truth, and not someone spouting that everything is one great Allegory, check here.
You just discredit your entire fundamentalist position the minute you (and so many others) use the "everything is one" or the "black or white" or the "all or nothing" arguments. It reveals a lack of thought and an unwillingness to use our reasoning and judgment to discern and discriminate the truth from among the ignorance and superstition of our ancestors.
You just discredit your entire fundamentalist position the minute you (and so many others) use the "everything is one" or the "black or white" or the "all or nothing" arguments. It reveals a lack of thought and an unwillingness to use our reasoning and judgment to discern and discriminate the truth from among the ignorance and superstition of our ancestors.
Mystic you are on Record denying the necessity of animal sacrifices. You've reduced the ENTIRE Leviticus system to "ancient ignorance." You're on record of "allegorizing" the "fall of man". This "allegorizing" to the this type of level is exactly what I'm talking about.
The ignorance must be on your part, or as is the concern is that you know exactly what you are doing don't you?
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