Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, I use to believe in the Trinity but did because it was the accepted teaching. I never really thought about it until I learned in the scriptures that Jesus has a God. I realized that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and an image is not the original. It is a likeness. I learned and understood that Jesus was given all authority not only on the earth, but also in heaven. And I learned that Jesus came to reveal His God, our God, His Father and our Father.
The realization that Jesus has a God and is subject to His God,does not take away anything from His divinity. God, His Father, has highly exalted Him and given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. He is our Savior and Lord. He deserves and will receive our worship and adoration, our allegiance. All will be made subject to Him.
ALTER2EGO -to- SHANA BROWN:
Well said. That's the point. Almighty God has no beginning and cannot die.
"Before the mountains themselves were born, or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God." (Psalms 90:2)
Jesus Christ had a beginning because he was created by Jehovah. And Jesus literally died.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)
"{50} Again Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. {58} This man went up to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded it to be given over. {59} And Joseph took the body, wrapped it up in clean fine linen, {60} and laid it in his new memorial tomb, which he had quarried in the rock-mass. And, after rolling a big stone to the door of the memorial tomb, he left." (Matthew 27:50)
Quote:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.."
Quote:
(Colossians 1:15)
At first glance this passage appears to say Messiah was created by God. However this passage uses a figure of speech called Anthropopatheia: the ascribing of human attribute: passion, actions, etc. to God.
The Scriptures that do this are too numerous to post here, but the human attributes are mention such as God having: a face, eyes, ears, nostrils,a mouth/lips/tongue, a voice, an arm. Which include idiomatic expressions such as: to stretch or put forth,shake, withdraw, etc. His "hand."
Also: hissing, breathing, laughing, crying out and such.
Other attributes are: power, purpose, providence, sorrow, rejoicing, pity, knowledge, preeminence, etc. etc.
Also,not knowing, the opposite of knowledge, is attributed to God. As when He asked Adam, "Where art thou?" Or asking Cain, "Where is thy brother?"
This same attribute is a is attributed to Messiah. As when He asked," Whose is this image and superscription?" Or, "Who touched me?"
Both God/Messiah are spoken of as a: Husbandman, builder, warrior, Counselor,physician, shepherd, King, etc.
Both God/Messiah referred to as a place: dwelling place; heaven, sitting on a throne, with His ppl, etc etc.
Both God/Messiah referred to as "Time:"
Years, Days are attributed to God, and as to "time" Messiah is referred to as the "first-born" of the creation; meaning He had preemience before creation.
So we see that Col. 1:15 is not saying God 'created' Messiah, but that He exsisted before the creation.
BTW, Messiah Himself tells us that when He refers to Himself as The Son of God [Daniel: 4th man in the fire] and The Son of Man also from the book of Daniel.
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-14-2012 at 09:27 PM..
Reason: fix typos
Hi, Mike's post does not explain or touch on the scriptures that tell us that Jesus has a God nor does it explain or touch on the teaching in the scriptures that Jesus is the image of God.
So my questions again are (in your own words) (for anyone who believes in a Trinity)
Do you believe that Jesus has a God? Yes or No.
What is an image or a representation to you?
The invisible God, the Father of Jesus, is spirit, according to Jesus.
God bless and peace.
Shana, I have a number of threads on the trinity and that Jesus Christ is God.
Jesus Christ from the moment of His incarnation is the unique Person of the Universe. He is eternal and infinite God and true humanity FOREVER. He remains in hypostatic union throughout all eternity future. From the standpoint of His humanity the Father is His God. NOT From the standpoint of His deity. I am aware that Hebrews 1:9 says ''Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God...'', but God the Father is addressing Christ as man. He is the God-Man.
Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Trinity. He is the visible representation of the Father. Prior to His incarnation, Jesus Christ manifested Himself in Theophanies. He appeared as the angel of the Lord. Not a created angel, but rather the 'angel of the Lord' is a title of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ who was one of the three 'men' who visited Abraham. It was Jesus Christ who was in the burning bush. It was Jesus Christ who was the cloud which led Israel by day, and the pillar of fire which provided light by night.
God is indeed Spirit. As deity, Jesus Christ is Spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit are. As man, Jesus has a resurrected physical and yet spiritual body.
The doctrine of the 'hypostatic union' which is permanent since His incarnation, and the 'kenosis' of Jesus Christ during His First Advent is not that difficult to understand. During His incarnation, Jesus spoke from the standpoint of His deity at times, and from the standpoint of His humanity at times, and from the standpoint of His whole person at times.
From the standpoint of His deity: John 8:58 ' Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'' His humanity did not exist eternally, but His deity did.
From the standpoint of His humanity: John 19:28 ''...I am thirsty.'' Deity cannot thirst. His humanity could. And notice that His deity did not give His humanity a cup of water. That is an example of Kenosis.
From the standpoint of His entire Person. His hypostatic union: Matthew 11:28 ''Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.''
John 14:6 'Jesus said to Him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.''
In those four verses are examples of both the hypostatic union and kenosis of Jesus Christ.
Shana, God in Isaiah 43:10 and 44:6,8 says that He is the only God, and there is no other God besides Him. Now there are false gods, there are the gods of mythology. There are men in authority who were called 'gods.' But there is only one true God.
And in John 1:1 Jesus Christ - the Word is Called God. God in the sense of deity. God in the sense of having the omnipotence to create the heavens and the earth (the universe). The First Person of the Trinity (The Father) as the architech or author of the plan of creation gave the command, and Jesus Christ by means of His own omnipotence brought into existence everything which exists. It is Jesus Christ who holds all things together (Col 1:17).
Do you understand that since God declares that He is the only true God, Jesus Christ cannot be another God. He cannot be a junior God, Or a little God. John 1:1 says that Jesus Christ is God. The reason the definite article is not used in connection with the Word is because He is being distinquished from the Father. But He is Himself God.
You seem to think that Jesus being in the form (morphen) of God (Phil 2:6) somehow means that He is not God. By that same reasoning then, Jesus being in the form (morphe) of a bond-servant (Phil 2:7) means that He was not really a bond-servant. Or that being made in the likeness (homoiomati) of men (Phil 2:7) means that He was not really a man.
So Shana, by your reasoning, if Jesus Christ wasn't God then He also wasn't a bond-servant in the likeness of men.
But He is God according to both John 1:1 and Phil 2:6, (remember that there is only one true God and therefore there can be no mini God or junior God). Therefore, being God, Jesus Christ is God. And so is the Father, and so is the Holy Spirit.
The only subservience is with regard to their plan of creation and salvation. Not with regard to any difference in their essence or nature, for there is no difference in their essence. They are a United One by means of their essence. The First, Second, and Third Persons of the Trinity have eternally co-existed and are co-equal.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-14-2012 at 11:04 PM..
Katie, do you believe that Jesus has a God? God bless and peace.
Hi Shana,
To answer your question, I would say yes, but from His human perspective, not His deity.
Shana, you maintain that Jesus didn't exist prior to His incarnation, except in the mind of God, correct?
Yet, Jesus says, "What then if you should behold the Son of man ascending where He was before? (John 6:62)
John 1:1,14 explicitly identifies "the word" who is God, and who became flesh (Jesus Christ). The word of God can't refer to an idea since the word itself is God. How can you say God is an idea in the mind of God?
The word of God also was actively involved in creation. Can an idea create? If the word was God, does that mean God was only an idea in the mind of God?
I would ask who God was speaking to when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image?" Was He speaking to Himself? Was He speaking to angels as others on the thread have suggested? Would that make angels co creators of man with God?
According to John 1:2,3, "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
This doesn't sound like angels were co creators with God to create man. So exactly who is the US and OUR in Genesis 3:26?
God Bless,
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 03-15-2012 at 05:27 AM..
I don't understand the bolded part above. Can you elaborate? Once I understand your position thoroughly, then I can respond in a meaningful way. Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Kate
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
Sure.
To reiterate what I said to Ancient Warrior, “the word” of Joh 1:1 is about Jesus but “the word” is not him personally, i.e. “the word” of Joh 1:1 is not a person who happens to be called “the Word” (i.e. God the Son). Again, my understanding is that “the word” of Joh 1:1 represents a thought /plan/message. The 'logos', thought, plan, or message, about Jesus was with ‘god’… in the beginning, and it became flesh/a concrete reality at Christ's birth.
Sure.
To reiterate what I said to Ancient Warrior, “the word” of Joh 1:1 is about Jesus but “the word” is not him personally, i.e. “the word” of Joh 1:1 is not a person who happens to be called “the Word” (i.e. God the Son). Again, my understanding is that “the word” of Joh 1:1 represents a thought /plan/message. The 'logos', thought, plan, or message, about Jesus was with ‘god’… in the beginning, and it became flesh/a concrete reality at Christ's birth.
Thanks Kids for clearing it up. I understand your position now.
Please read my post #375 to Shana. It pretty much addresses what you said.
Well, I use to believe in the Trinity but did because it was the accepted teaching. I never really thought about it until I learned in the scriptures that Jesus has a God. I realized that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and an image is not the original. It is a likeness. I learned and understood that Jesus was given all authority not only on the earth, but also in heaven. And I learned that Jesus came to reveal His God, our God, His Father and our Father.
The realization that Jesus has a God and is subject to His God,does not take away anything from His divinity. God, His Father, has highly exalted Him and given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. He is our Savior and Lord. He deserves and will receive our worship and adoration, our allegiance. All will be made subject to Him.
To answer your question, I would say yes, but from His human perspective, not His deity.
Shana, you maintain that Jesus didn't exist prior to His incarnation, except in the mind of God, correct?
Yet, Jesus says, "What then if you should behold the Son of man ascending where He was before? (John 6:62)
John 1:1,14 explicitly identifies "the word" who is God, and who became flesh (Jesus Christ). The word of God can't refer to an idea since the word itself is God. How can you say God is an idea in the mind of God?
The word of God also was actively involved in creation. Can an idea create? If the word was God, does that mean God was only an idea in the mind of God?
I would ask who God was speaking to when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image?" Was He speaking to Himself? Was He speaking to angels as others on the thread have suggested? Would that make angels co creators of man with God?
According to John 1:2,3, "He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
This doesn't sound like angels were co creators with God to create man. So exactly who is the US and OUR in Genesis 3:26?
God Bless,
Katie
Katie I notice you keep putting Joh 1:1; 14 together. It seems that you assumed since “the word” in v 14 is a person, then “the word” in v 1 is also a person. But why assume this?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
