Just thinking about this, and want opinions... (hell, myth, punishment)
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You're absolutely right. You dismissed me, and so I dismissed you. I apologize, even though I know you can do no such thing.
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To the contrary. No one is born homosexual
Says Mike. If my son tells me later he is a homosexual, I will not be surprised, because he has shown tendencies toward it all his life. But again, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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The Bible, which is the word of God explicitly states that homosexuality is an unnatural function and an indecent act. To deny that is to be in rebellion against Biblically revealed absolute truth. It is as simple as that.
Romans 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23] and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24] Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25] For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26] For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27] and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28] And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
I totally agree. Do you feel that slavery is an unnatural function and an indecent act?
Your intent is clear as stated in your question in the OP. 'why can we not look at the opposition of homosexuality as something that the bible is also "wrong" about, 2000 years later, and realize as thinking, reasonable humans, that people deserve to be treated the same, with the same rights... just as slaves did? A normal relationship of homosexuality hurts no one.' You stated that the Bible should be considered wrong in opposing homosexuality, and therefore that God should be considered wrong about homosexuality. And that makes you wrong.
For some reason, this didn't show up when I quoted you before. Do you think the bible is wrong for condoning slavery? Do you think slavery should still be in force today? Do you think anything that went on in the bible was wrong, or do you just dismiss/not think about all the horrible things?
How do we justify in our minds some of the things that happened, esp in the OT, as being ok, when today there is NO WAY we would put up with such things?
This is what I meant about not thinking for ourselves. In order to accept everything in the bible as being ok, makes us have to cloud our minds.
I believe in God. I believe the bible is a book that has been translated over and over and over again, with man's hands in it, who had their own agendas, that has many errors showing man messed up things. Therefore, I try to use reason when discerning things written therein. I know you and many will think that makes me a heathen, and that's ok.
My whole reason for this post is just to make people stop and think for one moment. I've even admitted I'm probably flawed in my reasoning.
JUST STOP AND THINK...CAN YOU RECONCILE THE GOD OF THE OT WITH THE "GOD IS LOVE" OF THE NEW? If you can, great. I however, struggle with it.
I know I poke my head in and out of here, because when I've had too much of this place, I have to have a break. I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks! We, as Christians today, condemn homosexuality because the old and new testaments speak against it. We all know Jesus never spoke of it in the New Testament, and there are only 3 passages about it, all from Paul. No other writer says a thing about it. Everyone will cling to these passages from Paul, saying it is sinful to be an acting homosexual. YET...the old and new testaments both talk about slavery. Slavery in the OT was very prominent, and even continued in the NT. Never is there any opposition to it, even in the NT. Paul even broke the OT law of sending an escaped slave back to his owner. You will find many passages in the NT regarding slavery, again, none of which condemn it.
My question? If we, as thinking, reasonable humans, can now say slavery is wrong, and not practice it, even though the bible never tells us not to, and that it's ok to own another person...why can we not look at the opposition of homosexuality as something that the bible is also "wrong" about, 2000 years later, and realize as thinking, reasonable humans, that people deserve to be treated the same, with the same rights... just as slaves did? A normal relationship of homosexuality hurts no one. Owning another human being would.
I would love everyone's opinions, but especially Christian's opinions. It's just something to think about. Maybe as we grew and realized the bible was "wrong" about slavery, we should grow and realize it is "wrong" about homosexuality.
I do understand we could then go on and on saying the bible is wrong about everything. However, that wasn't thought of when we decided slavery was wrong.
Sorry for the above formatting, I copied and pasted from my FB page, where I asked friends and family the same thing.
Your question ultimately goes back to the source for morality. As you have correctly pointed out, true morality doesn't come from the Bible god. If so, we would still be enslaving individuals, advocating genocide, and preventing women from voting. As we mature as a civilization we realize the wrongs we have committed and, thereby, modify the actions and attitudes we expect from one another, creating our own individual moral codes. As an Atheist, of course I don't believe you would be wrong to question the Bible, as the many bad things in the Bible should be questioned and even condemned. Hopefully, this will help.
So we are to assume that the only slaves in the Bible were those that sold themselves? If so, are you ok with that kind of slavery coming back? Including all the rules the old testament lays out about those slaves?
PS...not to mention the fathers selling their daughters as slaves. Would that be ok too?
Like the article mentions quite well, the Bible talks about God's Law in an imperfect world. Will people be selling themselves into slavery in the Kingdom of God? No. Does it happen even to this day? Yes.. so God gives us instructions. As mentioned, the Bible condemns both "man stealing" and "racial slavery".
What really is "slavery" anyways? Can't we all say that we are "slaves" to many things.. employers, jobs, etc... it's just defined in a different context. "Slaves" can be interpreted "employees" in many ways.
JUST STOP AND THINK...CAN YOU RECONCILE THE GOD OF THE OT WITH THE "GOD IS LOVE" OF THE NEW? If you can, great. I however, struggle with it.
God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), but his relationship with mankind has changed through sin being paid for once and for all on the Cross. With the Justice of the Law put on that Cross, God can freely forgive us for what must be paid for - sin.
God is Love. God is also a Just Judge among many other things. The Bible speaks about a spiritual war initiated at the Fall of Man which will conclude at the end of the Millennium reign of Jesus, one in which the physical manifestations are physically seen (ie Israel). There is a War going on whether we like it or not. This is a fallen world ruled under demonic principalities and powers. Ultimately God(Jesus) is going to wage war with these entities as well as those they deceive upon his return and "cast all things that offend" in the Lake of Fire according to Scripture
A lot of what gets criticized in the Old Testament is done without full understanding of the situation anyways as well as without understanding if Israel did not bring forth Jesus Christ there would be no hope for mankind. We would all have eternal separation from the one that created us - the source of all the good that we take for granted.
Why do we think slavery no longer happens? Slavery is still being practiced in the world, in fact, this article claims there are more slaves than ever. Perhaps this is the reason God/Jesus gave instruction on the proper treatment of slaves. I don't believe God condones slavery but gives instruction on slavery.
It existed then and it exists now. Just because our civilized worlds do not approve of human trafficking (I know everyone has heard of that--it is modern slavery) and there are multiple laws against slavery, it still exists. Sudan, Niger, UAE and several nations practice slavery. God never said it was politically correct, but the Bible does document slavery existing and so it was and now as well, just as there are wars. I don't believe God condones wars either, but they happen.
We have to consider what happens in the world, not just our nation.
As for the homosexual part, it has been well explained by Mike555.
God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), but his relationship with mankind has changed through sin being paid for once and for all on the Cross. With the Justice of the Law put on that Cross, God can freely forgive us for what must be paid for - sin.
God is Love. God is also a Just Judge among many other things. The Bible speaks about a spiritual war initiated at the Fall of Man which will conclude at the end of the Millennium reign of Jesus, one in which the physical manifestations are physically seen (ie Israel). There is a War going on whether we like it or not. This is a fallen world ruled under demonic principalities and powers. Ultimately God(Jesus) is going to wage war with these entities as well as those they deceive upon his return and "cast all things that offend" in the Lake of Fire according to Scripture
A lot of what gets criticized in the Old Testament is done without full understanding of the situation anyways as well as without understanding if Israel did not bring forth Jesus Christ there would be no hope for mankind. We would all have eternal separation from the one that created us - the source of all the good that we take for granted.
The source of all the good? Like the rape, murder, genocide, and slavery that the Bible god demanded of the Israelites? This "morality" is outdated and people are now realizing that these events demonstrate the unlikelihood of the existence of the god admired and worshiped by Jews and Gentiles. The stories theses writers created are no longer considered just, moral, or even humane according to today's standards and are subject to being considered merely "tall tales" used to scare people into subjugating themselves to the demands of the Bible.
Fortunately this "fallen world", as you call it, is becoming able to think for ourselves so that we can concentrate our efforts more toward making this world the best it can be for sustaining its inhabitants, the only life that can be proven to exist at this point. Eventually, all of this mysticism will go the way of previous myths and concoctions, rendering its believers insignificant and ostracized.
God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), but his relationship with mankind has changed through sin being paid for once and for all on the Cross. With the Justice of the Law put on that Cross, God can freely forgive us for what must be paid for - sin.
God is Love. God is also a Just Judge among many other things. The Bible speaks about a spiritual war initiated at the Fall of Man which will conclude at the end of the Millennium reign of Jesus, one in which the physical manifestations are physically seen (ie Israel). There is a War going on whether we like it or not. This is a fallen world ruled under demonic principalities and powers. Ultimately God(Jesus) is going to wage war with these entities as well as those they deceive upon his return and "cast all things that offend" in the Lake of Fire according to Scripture
A lot of what gets criticized in the Old Testament is done without full understanding of the situation anyways as well as without understanding if Israel did not bring forth Jesus Christ there would be no hope for mankind. We would all have eternal separation from the one that created us - the source of all the good that we take for granted.
I would agree with you Mike. I probably do not have full understanding of the Old Testament. Thank you for pointing out that we do take Him for granted.
Why do we think slavery no longer happens? Slavery is still being practiced in the world, in fact, this article claims there are more slaves than ever. Perhaps this is the reason God/Jesus gave instruction on the proper treatment of slaves. I don't believe God condones slavery but gives instruction on slavery.
It existed then and it exists now. Just because our civilized worlds do not approve of human trafficking (I know everyone has heard of that--it is modern slavery) and there are multiple laws against slavery, it still exists. Sudan, Niger, UAE and several nations practice slavery. God never said it was politically correct, but the Bible does document slavery existing and so it was and now as well, just as there are wars. I don't believe God condones wars either, but they happen.
We have to consider what happens in the world, not just our nation.
You're absolutely right!! Slavery does still exist. It's a sickening thing.
I disagree with you about God not condoning slavery though. If He was against it, He would have said don't do it, not... do it, but with these rules.
Thank you for pointing out that slavery does still exist.
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I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks!
