Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What if we searched the OT daily to see if current positions are valid?
Jesus said, "It is written." Paul quoted the OT often and authoritatively. He did not seem to be offended that the Bereans tested the spirits with the OT.
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What if we searched the OT daily to see if current positions are valid?
Jesus said, "It is written." Paul quoted the OT often and authoritatively. He did not seem to be offended that the Bereans tested the spirits with the OT.
Discussion, pro or con, appreciated.
Shalom,
Tom
Amen Tom! The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us all things written before time are written for our learning (Romans 15:4).
The problem many have with Paul (me included when I first was reading his epistles) is his explaining of Soteriology - Justification by Faith apart from Works of the Law. Either one is saved and then they obey or one obeys then is saved. It's frustrating that such a foundational doctrine is in confusion by so many Christians.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The Old Testament is just as 'inspired by God and profitable for instruction' as the New Testament. Of course, it must be read with a law vs grace mindset, but, even so, 'the law is not bad' and still has a place/role in the believer's life. (Rom. 7:7 --"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”).
The OT is the same as the NT (just as God is), if one knows how to read and think about it. For example, 'Was Abraham declared righteous for 'keeping the law' or for 'believing God?' Obviously, the latter, just like today. OR, 'Were keeping the law and sacrifices of the OT able to make man right with God?' Of course not, "the blood of goats and bulls was never able to take away sin" ... and "righteousness never came through keeping the law." OR, 'How would we really understand 'praise' were it not for the OT Psalms?'
The notion of many that the NT alone is sufficient, is flawed and robs many of the depth, beauty, teaching and verification of the OT.
"How exactly does it happen that normal human beings, all endowed with that of a conscience; having an awareness of individual responsibility for their judgments and choices.
Manage to justify in their own eyes the most inhuman atrocities and acts of self-righteousness without running into intolerable cognitive dissonance within their own supreme values?"
There is nothing inspiring about the butchering of men, women and children. Surely, you can distinguish the differences?
I bought DIOS HABLA HOY and GOOD NEWS BIBLE back in the 1980's because it had all the Bible books and I had majored in Spanish (Latin-American Culture & Civilization). I"m Jewish and had the Orthodox 7-12YO Hebrew education based on the Siddur. This bible cross-referenced in the footnotes all verses it could.
I was interested in those magic Aramaic words uttered by Jesus. It ended up being Psalm 22. I had never heard of Psalm 22 (I am not a Bible expert and don't use it that much.) I then was satisfied that I could use it if I wanted to as an index to each other.
Years later I decided to use Psalm 22 as my first music composition in my music education at Richland College, The whole process included selecting verses because it is a very long poem. The whole process was very therapeutic for me. Then I thought about Psalm 23. I had decided to document musically my married life. It began with Psalm 23 and ended with Psalm 22.
In addition, around Yom Kippur time Eli, Eli is a beautiful Jewish composition. I never knew that was Psalm 22 all my life until I used the NT.
I think all Christians should learn Hebrew so they can do the same thing. It is therapeutic. I only trust the original Hebrew for therapeutic reasons. The Bible belongs just as a human right to each of us. The folks that know both Hebrew and Koine Greek have the advantage.
BTW, just some new information. The Koran is now available in Hebrew. I bought it online. HaKoran by Uri Rubin in Tel Aviv. Another form of indexing the "Abrahamic Faith".
>>Amen Tom! The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us all things written before time are written for our learning (Romans 15:4). <<
RESPONSE:
What makes you think that the Holy Spirit is speaking through Paul?
Or is this just your assumption?
The Holy Spirit bears witness that Paul was speaking through the Holy Spirit. Ultimately the Scriptures are read through illumination by the author, the Holy Spirit.
Why would Paul refer people to the Old Testament to learn if it would expose him as not being led by the Holy Spirit as many claim?
Plus Peter endorses Paul's writings calling them Scripture.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Where the unstable wrest is with is the concept of Justification by Faith totally independent from works of the Law. Those approaching God with their own relative righteousness not submitting to the righteousness of faith in Jesus Christ have "stumbled at the stumbling stone" the Rock of Offense.
Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Matthew 21:43-45
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
The Pharisees attempted to approach God with the Law - their relative righteousness. They did not have Faith in God in Christ to Save. The Righteousness that saves is the one that is imputed to the believer from God (Romans 3,4,5) by receiving the free gift of Salvation through God's Grace.
Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Everything Paul says is right on target.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 08-21-2012 at 07:56 AM..
[quote=Mikelee81;25734942]The Holy Spirit bears witness that Paul was speaking through the Holy Spirit. Ultimately the Scriptures are read through illumination by the author, the Holy Spirit.
RESPONSE:
How do you establish that the Holy Spirit bears witness that Paul was speaking through the Holy Spirit?
Doesn't Paul himself admit that he used deception in:
1 Corinthians 9:20-22, "To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."
And clearly has no understanding of what's going on in 1 Corinthians 9, which is really part of a multi-chapter beautiful explanation on the freedom of the Christian, and then the giving up of rights for the sake of others. But AW sees only deception, which is both sad and a shallow reading.
>>The Holy Spirit bears witness that Paul was speaking through the Holy Spirit. Ultimately the Scriptures are read through illumination by the author, the Holy Spirit.
Plus Peter endorses Paul's writings calling them Scripture.
2 Peter 3:15-16<<
RESPONSE:
>>Plus Peter endorses Paul's writings calling them Scripture.<<
The problem here is of course, that 2 Peter doesn’t seem to have been written by the Apostle Peter, rather it's a pseudepigraphic writings, a later writing perhaps by one of Peter’s followers.
Among the reasons to believe this are :
1. If Peter died at the same time as Paul, how could he write “In all his letters”…how would Peter have had access to all the Pauline epistles?
2. Peter writes against (future) heretics, especially the Gnostics. How would he know about them?
3 2 Peter 3 2. "...that you should remember the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Saviour spoken through your apostles.” This sounds like it was written after the apostles and not by another apostle.
4. 2 Peter 3: 4 “…and saying, ‘Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died,* all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!’ This must have been written after the time of the (ancestors) ie, the apostles and Jesus’ immediate followers.
4. 2 Peter seems to rely heavily on the Epistle of Jude. Why would Peter do that if he himself had been an apostle of Jesus?
In short, we can't attest to the authenticity of Paul's wrtiings by using 2 Peter which was written after the time of the apostles (or ancestors).
And one can generally determine the approximate date of an scripture or early church writing by establishing when it was firt quoted by another writer who we can date.
Using this criterion, when was the first reference to 2 Peter in an early church writing?
Answer: "The first reference to 2 Peter by name is from Origen, writing at the beginning of the 3rd century. He noted that some had doubts about the epistle, although he did not indicate their reasons."
Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-21-2012 at 11:06 AM..
Reason: Removed [SIZE]s
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I Use the NT to Index the OT
