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Have you ever noticed, it seems to be the people who do not have first hand experiences with something but have read something about something and actually believe it has to be true because they read it somewhere...
I don't know, Richard, since this next one comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormon itself, and was written circa 1992 (a mere 20 years ago) with quotes from 1988. It puts an "oh, poor you" trip on women, and it puts a "damned if you don't" trip on men. The last paragraph is the worst. So, this is the official position of their church. It is degrading and guilt-laden, to say the least. None of the other Judeo-Christian religions focus so rigidly on the "should" directives for the genders, and accept people for what they have to offer, regardless of marital status. This crap is RECENT and has BYU in the IRL. For most of America, this is very out of touch. For the toothy Romney clan, not so much ...
Have you ever noticed, it seems to be the people who do not have first hand experiences with something but have read something about something and actually believe it has to be true because they read it somewhere...
What is your opinion about those women who have first hand experiences with something... is their understanding of their experience only valid if they approve?
What about Biff and Buffy at the hotel in SLC? Please don't tell me that the virginity rate at BYU, and in the Temple's marriages, is 100%. In Catholic and main-line Christian religions, I'd put the consummation rate at about 80+% before marriage. I hardly think this is a reason for dire consequences in the afterlife.
Traditional roles are more pronounced in your faith than most other common Judeo-Christian religions in this country, and in the modern world. I don't think there's any doubt about that. In fact, when your city elected a woman mayor named Corradini (sp), she was NOT LDS. I'll bet some Mormon women secretly hit the Corradini button instead of voting for the opposing Mormon male, assuming that's what he was, which is what "the family" consensus probably was.
While I am sure there are some more progressive marriages in your faith, I would venture to say that, by 2012 standards, many are not.
You're so full of it, Robert. You can go right ahead and venture to say anything you please, but you flat out don't have a clue. Nonsense like this doesn't even deserve a response.
Have you ever noticed, it seems to be the people who do not have first hand experiences with something but have read something about something and actually believe it has to be true because they read it somewhere...
Absolutely. It's confirmation bias at it's finest. You decide you hate a religion (for whatever reason) and you decide to go looking for evidence to support your bigotry. With the arrogance of limited information, a person can conclude pretty much anything he wants to.
You're so full of it, Robert. You can go right ahead and venture to say anything you please, but you flat out don't have a clue. Nonsense like this doesn't even deserve a response.
Actually, I do have a clue. You can find lots of threads where I question, almost bash, Catholicism. However, I also state that if I weren't somewhat "cafeteria," then I would be without a religion. You don't do the same about Mormonism. You make it seem like it's full of Mrs. Cunninghams on "Happy Days." There are lots of reports of high antidepressant use and excessive plastic surgery along the urbanized Wasatch Range. I'm sure the "expectations" created by your faith's collective thinking, to some extent, help fuel that.
You didn't answer my question about the virginity rate. I don't need a statistic. I just think that believing everyone who shows up at the Temple to get married is in a pure state is like sweeping something under the rug. When I go to a Catholic wedding and I see the bride come down the aisle, in white, with her train on the floor, and the organist going, I think (a) "Yeah, right ", (b) Coin toss, or (c) definitely - it would have been like "the blind leading the blind." Please try to put a more human, even sarcastic, face on your religion. It lends credibility to the discussion.
It was a stupid question, based on ignorance and fueled by unjustified contempt. I don't waste my time on those.
You're talking to me about credibiltiy? Good grief.
I see it as a valid question. You mention that the idea behind speeding up marriage is to ensure that a couple arrives to the Temple in a pure state. I asked you if this is in fact what does happen? People of all denominations sin and capitulate to lust. To say that this isn't so and think purity is at the 100% mark is denial. An answer like "most, but not all" would suffice.
Every religion obfuscates. The Roman Catholic church obfuscated the clergy abuse scandals. Today, they actually try to get a handle on the sexual proclivities of priests and some people in the church make some fairly bold assessments of this "phenomenon" without getting in trouble. As it should be.
You talk about the legalistic and normative aspects of your faith. What I, and possibly other posters, want to hear is how it actually works. I've watched a few YouTubes of "Big Love" and it ain't all rosy, so I'm assuming full adhesion to church values is NOT achieved in the LDS community.
I see it as a valid question. You mention that the idea behind speeding up marriage is to ensure that a couple arrives to the Temple in a pure state. I asked you if this is in fact what does happen? People of all denominations sin and capitulate to lust. To say that this isn't so and think purity is at the 100% mark is denial. An answer like "most, but not all" would suffice.
Every religion obfuscates. The Roman Catholic church obfuscated the clergy abuse scandals. Today, they actually try to get a handle on the sexual proclivities of priests and some people in the church make some fairly bold assessments of this "phenomenon" without getting in trouble. As it should be.
You talk about the legalistic and normative aspects of your faith. What I, and possibly other posters, want to hear is how it actually works. I've watched a few YouTubes of "Big Love" and it ain't all rosy, so I'm assuming full adhesion to church values is NOT achieved in the LDS community.
Robert, I am not a Mormon, but I am one of those dreaded Evangelicals I have read about on here. In reading your posts, it seems as though you are saying that people don't have the capacity to say no to their physical urges, and the temptations that they face....is this correct? I get the feeling that you think people are not on the up and up when they claim to have waited until marriage, etc. I did. It is possible. It is more likely to happen when a child is raised in a home where sexual purity is valued, and where the parents live out their faith in a genuine ( not perfect, but genuine! ) way. I believe that many Mormons, Protestants and Catholics do wait until marriage , and resist temptation, because of their deeply held faith and moral values. And that's a GOOD thing.
Maybe if you could refrain from burying your valid questions amongst your biased commentary and sarcastic innuendoes, they might be easier for me to spot.
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You mention that the idea behind speeding up marriage is to ensure that a couple arrives to the Temple in a pure state.
Not on this thread, I didn't. I may have mentioned elsewhere that LDS couples marry younger than most, and that the rationale behind this is that once you have committed yourself to spend the rest of your life with someone, it's harder not to go ahead and be sexually intimate. So on that point, what you said is probably pretty accurate.
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I asked you if this is in fact what does happen? People of all denominations sin and capitulate to lust. To say that this isn't so and think purity is at the 100% mark is denial. An answer like "most, but not all" would suffice.
So I said that "purity is at the 100% mark," huh? I'd like to see that quote, too. I never said anything of the kind. If I said anything at all on the subject (which I clearly haven't, at least on this thread) it would have been more along the lines of "most, but not all," because that almost certainly is the case. We do very strongly believe that sexual intimacy should be reserved for marriage. Period. I have absolutely no way of knowing how many couples who marry in the temple have been intimate with each other or with someone else. And neither do you for that matter. Furthermore, this has absolutely nothing to do with the role of women in Mormonism.
I would appreciating your not continuing to put words in my mouth. If your intent is merely to paraphrase me, your skills in that area need some serious work.
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You talk about the legalistic and normative aspects of your faith. What I, and possibly other posters, want to hear is how it actually works. I've watched a few YouTubes of "Big Love" and it ain't all rosy, so I'm assuming full adhesion to church values is NOT achieved in the LDS community.
Well, I watched every last episode of "Big Love" and it was my favorite show for as long as it ran. So what? It wasn't even about the LDS community. As far as "full adhesion to church values NOT being achieved in the LDS community," you're absolutely right. It's not. I have never, ever claimed otherwise.
Well, I watched every last episode of "Big Love" and it was my favorite show for as long as it ran. So what? It wasn't even about the LDS community. As far as "full adhesion to church values NOT being achieved in the LDS community," you're absolutely right. It's not. I have never, ever claimed otherwise.
Good, that's what I wanted to hear, and this implies it is across the board of the moral issues Mormons are presented with, including women's roles. Because this is how it is in Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, and Islam. Many identify with a religion. Not everyone buys in 100%.
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