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Going against the 'Word of God' means going against the Bible, or Bible standards and principles as outlined in Scripture [ Psalm 119 v 105 ]
So tell me how Jesus who is the Word of God goes against what you believe to be the wod of God.
Which word of God will you believe?
This is taken from a small article I wrote on the lying pen of the scribes.
Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.
Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read
We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21
Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.
Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Jesus’ words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.
Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42
Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.
Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.
So I guess two wrongs make a right? I did not ignore it, it's still a prime example of why Christians can't get along with one another and have such disagreements over the same book and try to be judgmental of each other by their own criteria and being judgmental is not there right by their own sacred book.
No, but your original post focused only on one side of this argument. I wanted you to see both.
Going against the 'Word of God' means going against the Bible, or Bible standards and principles as outlined in Scripture [ Psalm 119 v 105 ]
I disagree. There are many truths in the bible and I, for one, love to read and learn from the scriptures. But I know the book must be rightly divided by the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit - otherwise that book (the bible) would not so easily be the book of choice for many a crazed cult, as it is. That is why it's important to realize that Jesus Christ is the Word of God - not the BIBLE. I have made my case and don't intend to spend a lot more time arguing this point. I think everyone knows what I'm saying and if they pretend not to understand, or are too dull to understand, I can't help them.
Going against the 'Word of God' means going against the Bible, or Bible standards and principles as outlined in Scripture [ Psalm 119 v 105 ]
Here are some christian scholars thoughts on translating the scripture. You might even recognise some.
Gaius (AD175-200) who speaks of the source of corruptions that survive in the early papyri: "The Divine Scriptures these heretics have audaciously corrupted. Laying violent hands upon them, under pretense of correcting them."
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
Prof. Bart D. Ehrman in his book, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, where he warns us that: "...theological disputes, specifically disputes over Christology, prompted Christian scribes to alter the words of scripture in order to make them more serviceable for the polemical task. Scribes modified their manuscripts to make them more patently ‘orthodox’ and less susceptible to ‘abuse’ by the opponents of orthodoxy" --
One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?
St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
Eusebius writes of a number of sects of Christians of his day: "Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly. Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different. But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed".
Corruption within the NIV.
1 Pet 2:11-20 Original Text "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." (NIV)
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. (NIV)
Verses 13-14 and 17-18, which instruct the reader to submit themselves to the ordinances of man and honor the kings and governors was put there to exert political and social control over the people by the secular authorities of the Roman Empire.
Conybeare then goes on and quotes the biblical scholar Dr. C.R. Gregory, and writes:"In the case just examined (Matthew 28:19), it is to be noticed that not a single manuscript or ancient version has preserved to us the true reading. But that is not surprising, for as Dr. C.R. Gregory, one of the greatest of our textual critics, reminds us, 'The Greek MSS of the Text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings' (Canon and Text of the New Testament, 1907, p. 424)".
Conybeare then writes:"These facts speak for themselves. Our Greek texts, not only of the Gospels, but of the Epistles as well, have been revised and interpolated by orthodox copyists. We can trace their perversions of the text in a few cases, with the aid of patristic citations and ancient versions. But there must remain many passages which have been so corrected, but where we cannot today expose the fraud".
In the publication, The Fraternal Visitor, this assessment was made concerning the falsification of the scriptures: "Codex B (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS, …if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and the newly-risen doctrine of the trinity of falsifying the Bible even more than once" (Fraternal Visitor 1924, p. 148; translated from Christadelphian Monatshefte).
The Worlds Religions today are dead and are forms of control.. we are born to be free . religion has us fighting over dumb stuff. and we know it .. we jsut can't question it because it teaches the questioning god is a sin and that is punishable..
Post #43 is a prime example of why Christians can't get along with each other. twin.spin is letting his ego of thinking that he can judge others by his criteria, when he should not be the one judging, as I recall, that should be up to your god to do the judging. That's the problem that so many fundamentalists seem to have, they want to judge others by their criteria when in actuality they're in no position to do so.
So what you're saying is that when you go grocery shopping and you want fruit, you do it blindfold because you're in no position to do so for fear of being accused of judging.
When people misinterpret what we are to judge, they become prey:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.By their fruit you will recognize them."
It is actually unloving to not warn about false teaching and their teachers.
It is the always the hope that the false teachers will stop and turn away from false teachings... only because of the eternal consequences that come with being a false prophets and or believing in a false prophet's message.
Last edited by twin.spin; 03-21-2013 at 10:49 AM..
Reason: clarity
Here are some christian scholars thoughts on translating the scripture. You might even recognise some.
Gaius (AD175-200) who speaks of the source of corruptions that survive in the early papyri: "The Divine Scriptures these heretics have audaciously corrupted. Laying violent hands upon them, under pretense of correcting them."
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
Prof. Bart D. Ehrman in his book, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, where he warns us that: "...theological disputes, specifically disputes over Christology, prompted Christian scribes to alter the words of scripture in order to make them more serviceable for the polemical task. Scribes modified their manuscripts to make them more patently ‘orthodox’ and less susceptible to ‘abuse’ by the opponents of orthodoxy" --
One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?
St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
Eusebius writes of a number of sects of Christians of his day: "Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly. Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different. But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed".
Corruption within the NIV.
1 Pet 2:11-20 Original Text "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." (NIV)
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. (NIV)
Verses 13-14 and 17-18, which instruct the reader to submit themselves to the ordinances of man and honor the kings and governors was put there to exert political and social control over the people by the secular authorities of the Roman Empire.
Conybeare then goes on and quotes the biblical scholar Dr. C.R. Gregory, and writes:"In the case just examined (Matthew 28:19), it is to be noticed that not a single manuscript or ancient version has preserved to us the true reading. But that is not surprising, for as Dr. C.R. Gregory, one of the greatest of our textual critics, reminds us, 'The Greek MSS of the Text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings' (Canon and Text of the New Testament, 1907, p. 424)".
Conybeare then writes:"These facts speak for themselves. Our Greek texts, not only of the Gospels, but of the Epistles as well, have been revised and interpolated by orthodox copyists. We can trace their perversions of the text in a few cases, with the aid of patristic citations and ancient versions. But there must remain many passages which have been so corrected, but where we cannot today expose the fraud".
In the publication, The Fraternal Visitor, this assessment was made concerning the falsification of the scriptures: "Codex B (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS, …if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and the newly-risen doctrine of the trinity of falsifying the Bible even more than once" (Fraternal Visitor 1924, p. 148; translated from Christadelphian Monatshefte).
Yeah, and almost every church-going Christian I know secretly despises or is suspicious of our current President (Obama) and treats him with much spite, making course jokes about him, insisting that he is not really a Christian, and being paranoid that he secretly wants to take their guns away. My husband works with many of these types of Christians who have been arming themselves with AK47s and who truly despise Democrats and President Obama. They only respect the person in power when it is their "guy" in there. So they obviously do not take that scripture seriously (even though they claim to honor the bible as the Word of God).
Going against the 'Word of God' means going against the Bible, or Bible standards and principles as outlined in Scripture [ Psalm 119 v 105 ]
Psalm 145 is an acrostic poem. That means that each line of the Psalm starts with a successive letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Yet in the Karaites/Masoretic Text this does not happen, one verse (or line) is completely missing.
That verse which has been deleted reads
"God is faithful in all of his words, and pious in all of his deeds; blessed is the Lord and blessed is his name, forever, and ever."
Now because the Karaites/Masoretic Text has deleted this scripture all translations made on the Karaites/Masoretic Text do not have this scripture either, which includes the KJV of the bible.
So how can those bible translated from the Karaites/Masoretic Text be the undefiled Word of God if one whole verse is missing from it?
But how do we know that this verse
"God is faithful in all of his words, and pious in all of his deeds; blessed is the Lord and blessed is his name, forever, and ever."
Has really been deleted from the scriptures of the Karaites/Masoretic Text?
We know because of the discovery of the dead sea scrolls which has this verse
"God is faithful in all of his words, and pious in all of his deeds; blessed is the Lord and blessed is his name, forever, and ever."
In it. Thus making complete the acrostic poem.
Now if the Karaites/Masoretic Text bibles have deleted a whole line of scripture how many other scriptures have been deleted or added or changed?
Thus my point has been made that the lying pen of the scribes have added to and deleted from the scriptures.
Only the very naive will reject this evidence.
Let's look at another verse
Psalms 22:16
The Karaites/Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible originally read,"like a lion, my hands and my feet." and it was not until the dead sea scrolls were discovered that this verse was changed to "They pierced my hands and my feet." which the Septuagint had correctly translated it.
Scholars put this down as a scribal error, however Justin Martyr in his day said the scribes were deleting scripture that clearly showed Jesus was the Messiah.
Now after seeing what the Karaites/Masoretic Text did to Psalms 145 is it really so hard to believe Justin Martyr?
But some might say that is not enough evidence to go on. So let's keep looking.
I have read 16 different translations of Deuteronomy 8:6 which reads
"And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in his ways andby fearing him."
And every one of them (the 16 translations) is in ERROR.
According to the dead sea scrolls Deuteronomy 8:6 should read
"And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by loving him"
To quote another
These variants refer to two powerful but different emotions—fear and love. The variants also set forth a difference in how one understands Old Testament doctrines; in particular, the variants introduce the question of whether one should keep the commandments through fear or through love. The reading of love also provides us with an important view of the God of the Old Testament, who is sometimes portrayed as a strict Deity when compared with Jesus Christ and his teachings of love in the New Testament.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have this question for the original poster: Do you have any idea how circular your arguments are? Essentially your point of view boils down to this: "The Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible:". (Then you procede to give quotes from the Bible to support the idea that the Bible is the word of God.)
Based on that childish non-reasoning, any one of us could write something claiming to be the word of God. All we would have to do is state that's what it is. Then we could quote ourselves to "prove" that it is so.
How sadly pathetic.
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