Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If the Bible teaches obedience, mercy, and forgiveness, then why would discourage people from reading it? Why do you attempt to associate Bible reading Christians with only the negative (judgment, condemnation, and exclusiveness) and then blame it on the Bible?
If you believe obedience, mercy, and forgiveness are good things, then what sense does it make to argue the book which teaches those very things is in error?
I don't get that from what wardendresden is saying anything close to him suggesting discouraging people from reading it.
Look no further than this forum for the answer to the bolded. The magnification of sin,judgment and condemnation on this forum is unreal and the down playing of love,mercy, grace and forgiveness is shocking to say the least.
The issue is never the bible anyway, it is how it is read that is. The bible is not the equivalent of God and can only be understood in the Light of Jesus Christ.
I don't get that from what wardendresden is saying anything close to him suggesting discouraging people from reading it.
He tries to associate Bible reades with everything negative, which will discourage people from reading it. It is a dishonest association IMO.
It's like saying "people who watch CNN News are ignorant fools". Would that encourage you to watch CNN? No, because no one wants to be seen as an ignorant fool.
Nah, the argument is anti-Bible propaganda, which we see here every day.
Quote:
Look no further than this forum for the answer to the bolded. The magnification of sin,judgment and condemnation on this forum is unreal and the down playing of love,mercy, grace and forgiveness is shocking to say the least Moderator cut: delete.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-15-2013 at 08:26 PM..
Reason: personal attack
Drive the nail home into his flesh each time you sin.
If you chose to believe in atonement by blood then each time you sin create a mental image of the man up their suffering for you, imagine his body beaten, his hands and feet nailed, slowly dieing, and each time you sin more blood seeps out of his body, each time you sin he feels yet more pain, continue to sin and bring your idol pain.
The nail drives deep and the Merrymakers rejoice, the Nail drives home and the whole of the world was humbled.
I wash my hands of this abomination.
God forbade the Hebrew from performing human sacrifices, why would he go and break his own law for the sake of atonement,
When the authority to forgive existed in him before Christ was even born.
God is all powerful,
God is Good,
God is Kind,
God is not Jealous,
God does not boast,
God is love.
The people who wrote the New Testament misinterpreted the Old Testament if they came to they conclusion that blood was needed.
I am saved by grace because I commit myself to the teachings of Christ and worship only God.
Not because I can get away with doing what ever I want thanks to a belief, because sin will eat up grace. God is slow to anger but will forgive in a heart beat.
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,
Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealousGod.
Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,
Deuteronomy 6:15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealousGod and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
Joshua 24:19
Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God.
Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avengingGod; the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The Lord takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
I suppose Moses, Joshua, and Nahum had it all wrong as well....... I'm amazed that Jesus with his mind of Christ wouldn't have pointed that out and warned us about scriptures like those, since he read and quoted the OT scriptures.
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-15-2013 at 08:22 AM..
<snip>
In any case, I'm not sure why 'Bible inspiration and/or inerrancy' is suddenly on trial here.
Bible inspiration isn't on trial; bible inerrancy is.
And here are some really great reasons why:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
People are no longer walking in fear of others judgments; and condemnations.
They're seeing things from a Spiritual perspective, not through literal misconceptions.
"Hades is not a condo with two separate living quarters."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
The OP's post is defintely that some people worship the Bible to the exclusion of God. I, personally, am a Christian existentialist. I believe that with spirtual things, the experience is the one all and be all. That concrete evidence, the Bible, which is what inerrantists believe, gets in the way of the experience with God that existentialists hold to be fundamental. This is the overall philosopy/theology of the great Danish theologian, Soren Kierkiegaard:
Kierkegaard had a disdain for the Danish Church's reliance on the Bible. He once disparangingly wrote, "What we need to do is put all the Bibles in a great pile and burn them." His point was not that there is no importance in scripture, just that it frequently gets in the way of finding God through experience. In that respect he foresaw the failure of people who name the name of Christ to experience God as opposed to relying on something tangible--the Bible, which is exactly what inerrantists do by limiting God to their own view of how He could create the world, or how He could chose to provide His message through parables, not actual events, without diluting the message intended to His people.
Inerrantists limit God's ability to speak to people however He decides to do it. They reject "evolutionist" Christians, many who believe, as I do, that it makes no difference whether there was a 7000 year history of a 7 billion year history. God did it. But an inerrantist drives potential believers away by concentrating on "solving" discrepancies in the Scriptures, while an existentialist says, "nothing matters but the experience you have with God." This is why to really experience God, one doesn't rely on the Bible, he relies on coming to the edge of the abyss, tossing himself into it, with complete faith that God will catch him.
The purpose of inerrancy is to make God objective. Kierkegaard claims, Soren Kierkegaard Quotes - BrainyQuote And that is why inerrancy is stealing God's glory. Because it doesn't lie in the Bible. It lies in the experience one has with God. And it's attempt is to settle the meaning o eror.
The Bible is a window into the heart of God. The assumption of inerrantists is that all who look through the window see the same view. But some people stand to the left of the window, some stand to the right, some kneel before it and look up. All see the heart of God, but none will have exactly the same view. The castigation of those whose view is from another direction is where sin stands in the way of acceptance and kindess that Jesus demonstrated to us, and demanded that we live.
He tries to associate Bible reades with everything negative, which will discourage people from reading it. It is a dishonest association IMO.
It's like saying "people who watch CNN News are ignorant fools". Would that encourage you to watch CNN? No, because no one wants to be seen as an ignorant fool.
Nah, the argument is anti-Bible propaganda, which we see here every day.
You probably don't even realize it, but you are the worst offender in this forum. No one here talks about sin and condemnation more that you, only you project it on others. Just saying.....you might want to tone it down a notch.
No, Finn, the trap you've fallen into is believing that any biblical criticism is rejection of the Bible. I'm trying to get people to see beyond the Bible. You are still concentrating on making people not only see the "picture window" from my previous post, but to pretend there are no spots of dust or flaws in the glass through which we must look. Furthermore, I get the impression that you are judging people on whether they see the glass as you do. What Christian existentialists have done is move beyond the Bible to a higher plane.
When I was saved at age 16, it was not from being shown anything from the Bible, it was from an appeal to my heart that God was seeking me, and made clear to me by another boy my same age who was an All-American high school football end. The Bible played no role in that salvation although my grandparents had spent time speaking of it to me in my younger years.
The Bible IS important---as a window into the heart of God---and it accomplishes that with flaws and imperfections despite the fact that it is NOT as great as the One who inspired it.
I've probably spoken before congregations a hundred times as a ministerial student in my youth and as a lay pastor as an adult. In all my sermons, preaching from the Word, I've perhaps had one or two accept Christ with literally dozens of rededications. But the most people I've ever led to Christ are when I spoke one on one with them, with no Bible in hand to thumb through and point out scriptures. While I was in the Marine Corps on Okinawa, I was riding with a buddy going somewhere on the Rock (our term for Okinawa) and he knew I was a Christian. Out of the blue, he said, "No one has ever told me about becoming a Christian." I pulled over to the side of the road and told him if he wanted a friend (not an accuser) for life he needed to invite Jesus Christ into his life. I had no Bible, although I probably referred to Scripture---I don't remember. God used IMPERFECT me, to help that young man find Him. God can use an IMPERFECT Bible (scientifically imperfect, sometimes factually imperfect but absolutely NOT spiritually imperfect) to help people see His own perfection.
In college (a Baptist related school) we had two Bible professors. The "conservative" dressed flamboyantly, smiled always, shook your hand by grasping it with both of his, and taught Sunday school lessons in his classes. The "liberal" dressed in dark suits, was quiet (except in the classroom) and demanded complete scholarship from his students.
Early on in his New Testament course (a required course at my college) he said, "I see at least eighteen of you are ministerial students. You are like old wineskins into which I am going to pour new wine. And some of you will split wide open." His teaching consisted of teaching litererary critcism of the Bible, the JEDP theory about four writers of Genesis, of how even some of the New Testament letters may have had two sources in their compilation. After two weeks I went to him and said, "Dr. *****, I don't believe 90% of what you're teaching but I'm going to learn it better than any other student in the class." His reply, "Well son, there's still hope for you then."
I did split wide open with some of his teachings. But like the pod of a flower something else grew. Not so much because of his teaching, but because of his personal testimony. A couple of years later, due to some financial hardship, I had spoken to a couple of fellow students about leaving college. My professor, Dr. *****, heard about it and called me to his office. He said, "I want you to stay in school. My brother-in-law has funded a small scholarship and I'm going to award it to you to help defray costs of your last two semesters in college."
So, I stayed. It wasn't until years later, after he was retired, that I learned 80% of the funding for that scholarship came from his own pocket. He wasn't a Christian because he was liberal or conservative. He was a Christian because he had a personal experience with Jesus Christ and he witnessed with his life. The fact that the Bible was written by more authors than our Sunday School classes attribute to it made it no less meaningful to him. The fact that the classroom next door was occupied by one of his close friends, a science professor that we all knew was a Christian "evolutionist," didn't make him better or worse, it made him one who was able to see the possibility of ANYONE finding God.
Unfortunately, inerrantists frequently limit who God may find to those who accept a view Bible as they do. Thereby they limit the limitless God. I believe that is anathema to the God who found me.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 05-15-2013 at 09:48 AM..
Reason: formatting
Nope, not Bible readers ... just the people who push bible INERRANCY. Big difference.
There aren't too many people who think Bible is in error and read it anyway. Either way, if the Bible teaches obedience, mercy, and forgiveness, then a person who believes Bible as inerrant, would (by definition) believe those teachings to be true. That's just logic.
There aren't too many people who think Bible is in error and read it anyway. <snip>
Nobody's saying the bible is "in error", as in the whole of it is faulty, Finn, but simply that it contains errors. Once again, you're trying to force an all or nothing approach onto the bible, because that's what bible inerrantists do. You insist that if it's not 100% error-free, it's 100% worthless. And that's another answer to jghorton's question of why bible inerrancy is on trial.
Nobody's saying the bible is "in error", as in the whole of it is faulty, Finn, but simply that it contains errors. Once again, you're trying to force an all or nothing approach onto the bible, because that's what bible inerrantists do. You insist that if it's not 100% error-free, it's 100% worthless. And that's another answer to jghorton's question of why bible inerrancy is on trial.
You do see that this standard
Nobody's saying the bible is "in error"...but simply that it contains errors.
is the same pov that critiques have when they say:
the bible is not God's Word .... itsimply that it contains God's word
And why put it on trail .... so as to make truth relative. By allowing oneself this freedom, a person becomes the arbitrator of God's word.
The two question that still come from skeptics still follow these mindsets: doubt and or relativism
Nobody's saying the bible is "in error", as in the whole of it is faulty, Finn, but simply that it contains errors. Once again, you're trying to force an all or nothing approach onto the bible, because that's what bible inerrantists do. You insist that if it's not 100% error-free, it's 100% worthless. And that's another answer to jghorton's question of why bible inerrancy is on trial.
You contradict yourself. Anyway, I am not forcing or insisting anything. I also never said what you claim I said. I said: If the Bible teaches obedience, mercy, and forgiveness, then a person who believes Bible as inerrant, would (by definition) believe those teachings to be true. That's just logic.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
See beyond the Bible
