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Old 11-03-2007, 01:28 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
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I have been reading a number of posts which refer to satan as Lucifer and it is believed that satan was originally a perfect angel who sinned against God when he desired to be like God.

"You, the bright morning star
have fallen from the sky!
You brought down other nations;
now you are brought down.
13You said to yourself,
"I'll climb to heaven
and place my throne
above the highest stars.
I'll sit there with the gods
far away in the north.
14I'll be above the clouds,
just like God Most High."
15But now you are deep
in the world of the dead.
16Those who see you will stare
and wonder,
"Is this the man
who made the world tremble
and shook up kingdoms? Isaiah 14:12-16 NKJV Bible Gateway


It seems that Lucifer is not a Hebrew word and it is also not an English translation of the word. It is Latin and is related to a group of latin derived English words like luciferin and luciferose which all refer to brightness or shining. Does this necessarily refer to satan? Verse 4 in Chapter 14 shows that the passage is referring to the King of Babylon and there is no mention of satan anywhere in the passage. Many say that satan was an angel of light who became corrupted but was satan really an angel of light that became corrupted? Satan disguises himself into an angel of light according to 2 Corinthians 11:14. That is a big difference to me. The king of Babylon is a man according to verse 6. I believe that satan was created evil instead of as a perfect angel and some reasons I believe is are scriptures like these.


“…for the devil has sinned from the beginning…” 1 John 3:8 NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44 NASB

“But I am afraid lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3 NASB

“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth and his angels were thrown down with him.” Rev. 12:9

Also satan , the accuser, was already in heaven (Zechariah 3:1) but the king of Babylon said that he would ascend to heaven. He wanted to be above the clouds just like the Most High God. The king of Babylon died as his body was covered with worms and maggots. (vs. 11) but satan is alive today and he is not a man. Just some thoughts.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-03-2007 at 01:39 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-03-2007, 03:00 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,360,729 times
Reputation: 1044
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
I have been reading a number of posts which refer to satan as Lucifer and it is believed that satan was originally a perfect angel who sinned against God when he desired to be like God.

"You, the bright morning star
have fallen from the sky!
You brought down other nations;
now you are brought down.
13You said to yourself,
"I'll climb to heaven
and place my throne
above the highest stars.
I'll sit there with the gods
far away in the north.
14I'll be above the clouds,
just like God Most High."
15But now you are deep
in the world of the dead.
16Those who see you will stare
and wonder,
"Is this the man
who made the world tremble
and shook up kingdoms? Isaiah 14:12-16 NKJV Bible Gateway


It seems that Lucifer is not a Hebrew word and it is also not an English translation of the word. It is Latin and is related to a group of latin derived English words like luciferin and luciferose which all refer to brightness or shining. Does this necessarily refer to satan? Verse 4 in Chapter 14 shows that the passage is referring to the King of Babylon and there is no mention of satan anywhere in the passage. Many say that satan was an angel of light who became corrupted but was satan really an angel of light that became corrupted? Satan disguises himself into an angel of light according to 2 Corinthians 11:14. That is a big difference to me. The king of Babylon is a man according to verse 6. I believe that satan was created evil instead of as a perfect angel and some reasons I believe is are scriptures like these.


“…for the devil has sinned from the beginning…” 1 John 3:8 NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44 NASB

“But I am afraid lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3 NASB

“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth and his angels were thrown down with him.” Rev. 12:9

Also satan , the accuser, was already in heaven (Zechariah 3:1) but the king of Babylon said that he would ascend to heaven. He wanted to be above the clouds just like the Most High God. The king of Babylon died as his body was covered with worms and maggots. (vs. 11) but satan is alive today and he is not a man. Just some thoughts.

God bless.
He was Lucifer when God created him; now he is satan as I understand it from a Christian POV;
Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 11-03-2007 at 03:17 PM.. Reason: addaed afterthought
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Old 11-03-2007, 03:29 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
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Hi thanks for sharing yhwhshalmajr. Many Christians do not believe that they are one in the same and the article provided indicates that traditional thought was influenced by other things that are not given in the scriptures or that there were embellishments. The reason I brought this us is because many Christians believe that Lucifer (whom they believe is satan) was created as a perfect angel when this conflicts with scriptures that teach that satan was a sinner or a murderer from the beginning. Also Lucifer is described as a man in the scriptures as opposed to a spiritual being as satan is believed to be. Thanks again for sharing and God bless.
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:08 PM
 
435 posts, read 1,048,384 times
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Now Shane you do realize, without arguing your point, when it comes to the time phrases given in these verse there are a number of possibilities. The begining we have is the begining of what? Begining of time? Begining of creation of heavenly beings? Begining of sin? Begining of earth? Begining of the fall of man? lol. I am not trying to confuse you mate, I am merely trying to point out that it can be very easy to assume something without sufficient scriptural backing, just like the lucifer and satan thing. So when the bible speaks of satan being evil from the beginning we have to ask ourself what beginning is the verse talking about, without assuming.
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:11 PM
 
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i am hoping that you are keeping in mind the fact that angels to take human form, you see this happening in old testament.
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:28 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Now Shane you do realize, without arguing your point, when it comes to the time phrases given in these verse there are a number of possibilities. The begining we have is the begining of what? Begining of time? Begining of creation of heavenly beings? Begining of sin? Begining of earth? Begining of the fall of man? lol. I am not trying to confuse you mate, I am merely trying to point out that it can be very easy to assume something without sufficient scriptural backing, just like the lucifer and satan thing. So when the bible speaks of satan being evil from the beginning we have to ask ourself what beginning is the verse talking about, without assuming.

Hi Timothy, I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your feedback.

I am thinking of John 1:
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” John 1

Jesus just states that satan was a murderer or was sinning from the beginning so I take it as from the beginning of creation.Even if someone believes that satan who they call Lucifer was perfect from his creation, the question still remains, how did he become evil if he was perfect from his creation? Why would he sin against God, if he was created perfect? Why would make the wrong choice if you believe that he had a choice? How can we assume that this passage is speaking about satan as an angel of light when there are references to this being as a man (verse 6). Is there any Biblical basis for believing that the king of Babylon was satan in human form? Thanks again and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-03-2007 at 06:53 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:59 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
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Does being perfect automatically means being good?
Why could a perfect being not be above morals?
Then again if everyone and everything was perfect and perfection also means being free of death, there would be no need for morality.

The only reason I think that we should be moral is because of death and suffering, 2 things which would be impossible if everyone was perfect.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:15 AM
 
435 posts, read 1,048,384 times
Reputation: 330
Exactly my point- you are assuming shane that the the beginning in John chapter 1 and the other beginning are referring to the same time, you dont have enough evidence to support yourself. In actual fact you are guilt of the same sin that those who say isaiah 14 is talking about satan are guilt of - assuming.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:20 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Exactly my point- you are assuming shane that the the beginning in John chapter 1 and the other beginning are referring to the same time, you dont have enough evidence to support yourself. In actual fact you are guilt of the same sin that those who say isaiah 14 is talking about satan are guilt of - assuming
.

How is this a sin, Timothy, drawing conclusions based on what information I have? Looking at the context of the whole book of John, I believe that it is referring to the same thing. Is that a sin? What information do we have that leads to another conclusion based on the context of this book? Jesus said that he was sinning from the beginning and a murderer from the beginning and the book of John opens as "In the beginning ..." Someone else may disagree. Does this mean that we are sinning? Is there any Biblical basis for believing that the king of Babylon was satan in human form? God bless, Timothy.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-04-2007 at 12:25 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,520,600 times
Reputation: 1573
Then again, a perfect being would not want and / or need anything.
If Lucifer was perfect he would not want and / or need to be God and God would not want and / or need our love either.

Last edited by Tricky D; 11-04-2007 at 12:45 AM.. Reason: spelling
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