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Old 11-06-2007, 06:30 AM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Only the bible provides a solution for this ever increasing problem
Suffering and pain are all around us everyday; Our understanding is that the bible tells us in advance that it will not only continue, but get worse; It is a signal from God that something is wrong, IMO something is out of order" since God is a God of order. Had humanity heeded the regulations He gave to Israel around 1600BC, many major health problems would have never happened.
Human greed leads to the suffering of many innocent and exploitation of the weak. Much misery is the result of "Lack of Control" unrestrained human nature.
Anger and violence brings suffering to countless innocent victims
The lust for power.
Control"
The solution is only one or two things1). God's gift of eternal life . (2.) Oblivion
God will not remove the consequences of " Wickedness" and allow the rebellious to remain unchecked. God want people to acknowledge their own inadequacies and the need for Him. But to force us to obedience, would frustrate His original and Divine intended purpose for us, in creating us with "free will" or "free moral agents".
In the Bible God has given us the reasons for human suffering, and what He require of us who want to enjoy life" here in the now" and in the everlasting future.
What are your thoughts?
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:52 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,301,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
Only the bible provides a solution for this ever increasing problem
Suffering and pain are all around us everyday; Our understanding is that the bible tells us in advance that it will not only continue, but get worse; It is a signal from God that something is wrong, IMO something is out of order" since God is a God of order. Had humanity heeded the regulations He gave to Israel around 1600BC, many major health problems would have never happened.
Human greed leads to the suffering of many innocent and exploitation of the weak. Much misery is the result of "Lack of Control" unrestrained human nature.
Anger and violence brings suffering to countless innocent victims
The lust for power.
Control"
The solution is only one or two things1). God's gift of eternal life . (2.) Oblivion
God will not remove the consequences of " Wickedness" and allow the rebellious to remain unchecked. God want people to acknowledge their own inadequacies and the need for Him. But to force us to obedience, would frustrate His original and Divine intended purpose for us, in creating us with "free will" or "free moral agents".
In the Bible God has given us the reasons for human suffering, and what He require of us who want to enjoy life" here in the now" and in the everlasting future.
What are your thoughts?
I completely agree with you yhwhshalomjr! I've never believed in the view of a cruel and vindictive God, he is love in my view but he is wisdom too so he created a set of rules to take care of judgement.

Material desires are light a burning candle, and we are like butterflies attracted to the "light" of that burning candle but if we decide to go for it we'll just end being burnt.

God wants us to stay away from that candle but he gave us freewill and wisdom to discern right from wrong, if we still decide to go for it he won't do anything, but the subtle spiritual rules he created will eventually make us suffer, unless we really regret it with all our hearts and ask for forgiveness, God knows what it is in our hearts and if he see that we truly understood we sinned and made a resolution of not doing it again, he can bend the rules a little and help us against those rules.

imho God is love so he can bend the rules to help us if our hearts are good, but he would never bend them to punish us or to make our punishment by these rules harder.


Love and Light!
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:05 AM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
God want people to acknowledge their own inadequacies and the need for Him. But to force us to obedience, would frustrate His original and Divine intended purpose for us, in creating us with "free will" or "free moral agents".

Hi yhwhshalomjr,

I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will. If God works all things according to the counsel of His will, how can we have free will? All will be subjected to the Lord Jesus Christ. Where is free will in this? Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him one day. Will this be the result of free will or God's will? This will not be an option. Is it wrong for God to force His will upon us? Is this bad for us or good for us? If you believe that is is wrong, why? Jesus prayed for the Father's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Was it wrong for Jesus to pray this prayer? If He prayed this prayer doesn't that mean that God's will is to be followed, not man's will? Don't you believe that God will answer this prayer in the affirmative since it will be God's will being done? Maybe we have a different understanding of what free will is. What is free will to you? Just sharing.



Quote:
In the Bible God has given us the reasons for human suffering, and what He require of us who want to enjoy life" here in the now" and in the everlasting future.
What are your thoughts?
I believe that the scriptures provide many reasons for human suffering. But if all if out of God, then suffering has it's place in the design of God. When we suffer, many of us acknowledge our inadequacies, or total dependence on God. We realize that all of our strength and hope lies in Him and not within ourselves. I believe that suffering one of the ways that God teaches us to depend on Him and it is beneficial to us in many ways although is may not be pleasant. Some suffering is the result of human behavior but some is not. For example, people suffer from natural disasters or illness. God bless.

God bless and take care.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-06-2007 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:26 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,362,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi yhwhshalomjr,

I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will. If God works all things according to the counsel of His will, how can we have free will? All will be subjected to the Lord Jesus Christ. Where is free will in this? Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him one day. Will this be the result of free will or God's will? This will not be an option. Is it wrong for God to force His will upon us? Is this bad for us or good for us? If you believe that is is wrong, why? Jesus prayed for the Father's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Was it wrong for Jesus to pray this prayer? If He prayed this prayer doesn't that mean that God's will is to be followed, not man's will? Don't you believe that God will answer this prayer in the affirmative since it will be God's will being done? Maybe we have a different understanding of what free will is. What is free will to you? Just sharing.





I believe that the scriptures provide many reasons for human suffering. But if all if out of God, then suffering has it's place in the design of God. When we suffer, many of us acknowledge our inadequacies, or total dependence on God. We realize that all of our strength and hope lies in Him and not within ourselves. I believe that suffering one of the ways that God teaches us to depend on Him and it is beneficial to us in many ways although is may not be pleasant. Some suffering is the result of human behavior but some is not. For example, people suffer from natural disasters or illness. God bless.

God bless and take care.
Quote:
I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will.


We can't reason with the word of God; the things of the natural mind can't understand the things of God. These things that are revealed by God's Divine
infinite power. revelations. Since we are free moral agents and have a free will to choose good or evil; When we reason with God over every detail that doesn't make sense to our mind, we limit ourselves and cause confusion, either we trust God or we don't and to not trust that His word is truth by faith, is sinning against what Jesus taught us. But I believe I tried to express this in another thread
May God Bless You
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:32 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,453,647 times
Reputation: 47456
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
Only the bible provides a solution for this ever increasing problem
Suffering and pain are all around us everyday; Our understanding is that the bible tells us in advance that it will not only continue, but get worse; It is a signal from God that something is wrong, IMO something is out of order" since God is a God of order. Had humanity heeded the regulations He gave to Israel around 1600BC, many major health problems would have never happened.
Human greed leads to the suffering of many innocent and exploitation of the weak. Much misery is the result of "Lack of Control" unrestrained human nature.
Anger and violence brings suffering to countless innocent victims
The lust for power.
Control"
The solution is only one or two things1). God's gift of eternal life . (2.) Oblivion
God will not remove the consequences of " Wickedness" and allow the rebellious to remain unchecked. God want people to acknowledge their own inadequacies and the need for Him. But to force us to obedience, would frustrate His original and Divine intended purpose for us, in creating us with "free will" or "free moral agents".
In the Bible God has given us the reasons for human suffering, and what He require of us who want to enjoy life" here in the now" and in the everlasting future.
What are your thoughts?
good post you got rep.
everything you said was true. but i would like to extoll the virtue of suffering if i may. pain is useful if channeled. its teaches you how now to not do something again. if channeled, this promotes improvement.
camp pendleton uses it all the time. throughout my journey, for me, it has been a frequent companion.
gee i wonder what its like to live without it?
sounds good.
this post is not intended to offend demean or disrespect anybody.
it is a personal opinion solicited.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:35 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,362,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi yhwhshalomjr,

I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will. If God works all things according to the counsel of His will, how can we have free will? All will be subjected to the Lord Jesus Christ. Where is free will in this? Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him one day. Will this be the result of free will or God's will? This will not be an option. Is it wrong for God to force His will upon us? Is this bad for us or good for us? If you believe that is is wrong, why? Jesus prayed for the Father's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Was it wrong for Jesus to pray this prayer? If He prayed this prayer doesn't that mean that God's will is to be followed, not man's will? Don't you believe that God will answer this prayer in the affirmative since it will be God's will being done? Maybe we have a different understanding of what free will is. What is free will to you? Just sharing.

Quote:
I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will.

Free will is what Eve had in the garden of Eden before being seduced by the serpent; she chose to disobey God, henceforth persuading Adam in her plight.
Free will is our choice as children to obey our parents or disobey and suffer the consequence of our disobedience. God's word have been tested and tried and found true. Examples of free will can be found all through the word of God.
The word Rapture is not found in the Bible; but it explains the Rapture.

I believe that the scriptures provide many reasons for human suffering. But if all if out of God, then suffering has it's place in the design of God. When we suffer, many of us acknowledge our inadequacies, or total dependence on God. We realize that all of our strength and hope lies in Him and not within ourselves. I believe that suffering one of the ways that God teaches us to depend on Him and it is beneficial to us in many ways although is may not be pleasant. Some suffering is the result of human behavior but some is not. For example, people suffer from natural disasters or illness. God bless.

God bless and take care.
Quote:
I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will.


We can't reason with the word of God; the things of the natural mind can't understand the things of God. These things that are revealed by God's Divine
infinite power. revelations. Since we are free moral agents and have a free will to choose good or evil; When we reason with God over every detail that doesn't make sense to our mind, we limit ourselves and cause confusion: And God is not the author of confusion. either we trust God or we don't and to not trust that His word is truth by faith, is sinning against what Jesus taught us. But I believe I tried to express this in another thread
May God Bless You
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:43 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,362,814 times
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Commentary by A. R. FAUSSET
Forgive me for veering off topic; but this is in response to Shana about free will.
amieson, Fausset & Brown
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews

Commentary by A. R. FAUSSET
CHAPTER 11
Hbr 11:1-40 . DEFINITION OF THE FAITH JUST SPOKEN OF ( Hbr 10:39 ): EXAMPLES FROM THE OLD COVENANT FOR OUR PERSEVERANCE IN FAITH.

1. Description of the great things which faith (in its widest sense: not here restricted to faith in the Gospel sense) does for us. Not a full definition of faith in its whole nature, but a description of its great characteristics in relation to the subject of Paul's exhortation here, namely, to perseverance.
substance, &c.--It substantiates promises of God which we hope for, as future in fulfilment, making them present realities to us. However, the Greek is translated in Hbr 3:14 , "confidence"; and it also here may mean "sure confidence." So ALFORD translates. THOMAS MAGISTER supports English Version, "The whole thing that follows is virtually contained in the first principle; now the first commencement of the things hoped for is in us through the assent of faith, which virtually contains all the things hoped for." Compare Note, see on JF & B for Heb 6:5, "tasted . . . powers of the world to come." Through faith, the future object of Christian hope, in its beginning, is already present. True faith infers the reality of the objects believed in and honed for ( Hbr 11:6 ). HUGO DE ST. VICTOR distinguished faith from hope. By faith alone we are sure of eternal things that they ARE: but by hope we are confident that WE SHALL HAVE them. All hope presupposes faith ( Rom 8:25 ).
evidence--"demonstration": convincing proof to the believer: the soul thereby seeing what the eye cannot see.
things not seen--the whole invisible and spiritual world: not things future and things pleasant, as the "things hoped for," but also the past and present, and those the reverse of pleasant. "Eternal life is promised to us, but it is when we are dead: we are told of a blessed resurrection, but meanwhile we moulder in the dust; we are declared to be justified, and sin dwells in us; we hear that we are blessed, meantime we are overwhelmed in endless miseries: we are promised abundance of all goods, but we still endure hunger and thirst; God declares He will immediately come to our help, but He seems deaf to our cries. What should we do if we had not faith and hope to lean on, and if our mind did not emerge amidst the darkness above the world by the shining of the Word and Spirit of God?" [CALVIN]. Faith is an assent unto truths credible upon the testimony of God (not on the reasonableness of the thing revealed, though by this we may judge as to whether it be what it professes, a genuine revelation), delivered unto us in the writings of the apostles and prophets. Thus Christ's ascension is the cause, and His absence the crown, of our faith: because He ascended, we the more believe, and because we believe in Him who hath ascended, our faith is the more accepted [BISHOP PEARSON]. Faith believes what it sees not; for if thou seest there is no faith; the Lord has gone away so as not to be seen: He is hidden that He may be believed; the yearning desire by faith after Him who is unseen is the preparation of a heavenly mansion for us; when He shall be seen it shall be given to us as the reward of faith [AUGUSTINE]. As Revelation deals with spiritual and invisible things exclusively, faith is the faculty needed by us, since it is the evidence of things not seen. Faith believes what it sees not; for if thou seest there is no faith; the Lord has gone away so as not to be seen: He is hidden that He may be believed; the yearning desire by faith after Him who is unseen
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:58 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,362,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi yhwhshalomjr,

I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will. If God works all things according to the counsel of His will, how can we have free will? All will be subjected to the Lord Jesus Christ. Where is free will in this? Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him one day. Will this be the result of free will or God's will? This will not be an option. Is it wrong for God to force His will upon us? Is this bad for us or good for us? If you believe that is is wrong, why? Jesus prayed for the Father's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Was it wrong for Jesus to pray this prayer? If He prayed this prayer doesn't that mean that God's will is to be followed, not man's will? Don't you believe that God will answer this prayer in the affirmative since it will be God's will being done? Maybe we have a different understanding of what free will is. What is free will to you? Just sharing.





I believe that the scriptures provide many reasons for human suffering. But if all if out of God, then suffering has it's place in the design of God. When we suffer, many of us acknowledge our inadequacies, or total dependence on God. We realize that all of our strength and hope lies in Him and not within ourselves. I believe that suffering one of the ways that God teaches us to depend on Him and it is beneficial to us in many ways although is may not be pleasant. Some suffering is the result of human behavior but some is not. For example, people suffer from natural disasters or illness. God bless.

God bless and take care.
Quote:
Hi yhwhshalomjr,

I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will.

Bible Life Ministries - God's Election and Man's Free Will
Predestination free will Study Bible Forum studybibleforum
Free will - Theopedia
I hope that these will help..
God Bless You

Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 11-06-2007 at 01:10 PM.. Reason: added Theopedia
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:58 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,821,515 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
I have to disagree with the last sentence here, brother. I believe that there are many scriptures which do not support the belief or teaching of free will.
Quote:
We can't reason with the word of God; the things of the natural mind can't understand the things of God. These things that are revealed by God's Divine
infinite power. revelations. Since we are free moral agents and have a free will to choose good or evil; When we reason with God over every detail that doesn't make sense to our mind, we limit ourselves and cause confusion: And God is not the author of confusion. either we trust God or we don't and to not trust that His word is truth by faith, is sinning against what Jesus taught us. But I believe I tried to express this in another thread
May God Bless You

Hi yhwhshalomjr,

Thanks for sharing. We are evidently seeing two different things in the scriptures. I do trust God's word as truth by faith and that's why I believe it when it says that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. (Ephesians 1). When Paul says that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, this tells me that God's will will be done, not man's will. It is not up to what many to be man's free will. Everything that I have shared is scriptural and just because you don't believe as I believe on this matter, doesn't mean that I am sinning or that I am not trusting God's word as truth by faith. Would you agree, yhwhshalomjr? Do you trust God's word as truth by faith on these scriptures which speak to the sovereignty of God's will?


24” A man’s steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?” Proverbs 20:24

13 “The LORD looks from heaven;He sees all the sons of men.14 From the place of His dwelling He looksOn all the inhabitants of the earth;15 He fashions their hearts individually;

"He considers all their works.” Psalm 33:149”Remember the former things of old; for I [am] ƒƒ‚¹God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; 10declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; 11calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. Yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” Isaiah 46:9-11

14 “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” Romans 9: 14-21

13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change?And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me,And many such things are with Him.” Job 23:13-14


“And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.” Acts 5:38-39


1 “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD,Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes“. Proverbs 21:1


34 “And at the end of the time[b] I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. 35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” Daniel 4:34

12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. “Philippians 2:12-13

I” have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “ God has given them a spirit of stupor,Eyes that they should not seeAnd ears that they should not hear,To this very day.”[d] Romans 11: 4-8

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me, draws him


"FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL"

mycouns

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/SovereigntyScriptures.html


God bless and take care.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-06-2007 at 03:29 PM..
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:10 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,362,814 times
Reputation: 1044
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunky39 View Post
good post you got rep.
everything you said was true. but i would like to extoll the virtue of suffering if i may. pain is useful if channeled. its teaches you how now to not do something again. if channeled, this promotes improvement.
camp pendleton uses it all the time. throughout my journey, for me, it has been a frequent companion.
gee i wonder what its like to live without it?
sounds good.
this post is not intended to offend demean or disrespect anybody.
it is a personal opinion solicited.

Do your thing brother; Bunky39
Even though I'm a fellow veteran, as much as I'd like to agree with you, i can't;
make an appointment with the Chaplain...
Come on now... I'm not knocking you, I just care about you dude...
But the answer to your question "what it's like to live without it?"
Why don't you try it and see.
God Bless You
For Serving our country man; they are giving free dinners out next Mon. for veterans and active duty alike at Golden Corral all over the CONUS
YUM YUM....
And you gotta a rep too!!!!!!!! Enjoy the dinner, if you can make it

Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 11-06-2007 at 02:13 PM.. Reason: added text
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