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I think it is hard to believe that angels procreate with humans, they are spritual beings, I do not believe they are able to procreate at all, maybe they can fornicate humans but I can hardly believe that they are able to procreate angelic half breeds.
It is true that angels don't procreate. That is, angels are not born, and neither do they die. The number of angels has been constant since their initial creation before God created the earth.
However, angels are, or at least at one time, were able to assume human appearance, and with it human function. This is seen in passages such as Genesis chapter 18 when three 'men' appeared to Abraham. Two of these 'men' were angels, and the other was the LORD Himself. They ate, they rested, they washed their feet.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are three New Testament passages which connect the group of fallen angels who are now imprisoned with the Genesis 6 incident which prompted Noah's flood.
Take 2 Peter 2:4-5.
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
The sin referred to in the above passage for which the fallen angels are now imprisoned in Tartarus is not the original sin of the fallen angels in which they rebelled with Satan against God. If it were, then all of the fallen angels would currently be imprisoned in Tartarus. But they aren't. Most of the fallen angels are currently active on this earth. Instead, the above passage connects the sin of this particular group of fallen angels who are now imprisoned with the Genesis 6 event which God put an end to with Noah's flood.
Likewise, 1 Peter 3:18-20 further connects the imprisoned fallen angels with their disobedience during the days of Noah.
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm. In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
The prison referred to but not named in 1 Peter 3:19 in which the angels who were disobedient in the days of Noah is Tartarus which is mentioned by name in 2 Peter 2:4 [in the Greek].
Quote:
Maybe this is a more suitable interpretation:
Genesis 6:
And it came to pass when mankind began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and took themselves wives of all that they chose.
3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not always plead with Man; for he indeed is flesh; but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4 In those days were the giants (the Nephilim) on the earth, and also afterwards, when the sons of God had come in to the daughters of men, and they had borne [children] to them; these were the heroes, who of old were men of renown.
I think it's possible that the sons of God were the offspring of Seth and the daughters of men the offspring of Cain.
Whereas the Nephilim were in fact angelic beings, though not the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men.
According to this translation it appears that the Nephilim were already on the earth before the sons of God mate with the daughters of men.
Let's say the Nephilim were indeed apostate angels, but their sin was not that they breed with humans but that they were tyrants and raiders that left heaven and wroke havoc on earth. Maybe they took on human or superhuman form and pretended to be gods (e.g. Baal). As far as I know some of the churchfathers believed that the pagan deities were really existing demons.
However, as already mentioned, in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the phrase 'bene ha elohim' always refers to angels. Not to men.
Excerpt:
Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4. This by no means closes the debate. However, the view that Genesis 6:1-4 involves fallen angels mating with human females has a strong contextual, grammatical, and historical basis.
If the Nephilim had been angels rather than half angel and half human then they could not have been destroyed in the flood.
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When we look at Jude:
But I would put you in remembrance, you who once knew all things, that the Lord, having saved a people out of [the] land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed those who had not believed.
6 And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to [the] judgment of [the] great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire.
Not the whole context is about fornication given the reference to the unbelievers in Egypt; so that the apostate angels did not keep their original state may very well refer to the possible circumstance that they became tyrants on earth and maybe pretended to be gods rather than their alleged intercourse with humans.
To be me this would make much more sense, would be interested to hear other opinions on this.
Please read the following carefully.
The context of the Jude passage concerns the warnings of history to the ungodly. The reference to those who were saved out of the land of Egypt (Jude 1:5), and the subsequent destruction of the unbelievers among them is one example.
But then in Jude 1:6-7 two different examples are given. The example of the fallen angels, and the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. But the reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is the same as for the imprisonment of the angels who did not keep their own domain - gross immorality and going after strange flesh.
Jude 1:6 And angels (Masculine Gender; Plural) who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7] just as Sodom (Neuter Gender) and Gomorrah (Feminine Gender) and the cities (Feminine Gender) around them, since they in the same way as these (toutois - Masculine Gender;Plural) indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
A pronoun must match the gender and number of the noun which is its antecedent. If you will notice, the pronoun 'toutois' - 'as these', in Jude 7 is Masculine. The nearest noun to which 'toutois' can refer is 'angels' in Jude 6 which is also Masculine. Therefore Jude 7 states that Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of the same sin as the angels in Jude 6.
Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these [angels] indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
The Expositor's Bible Commentory concerning Jude 7 says...
The third example of judgment is that of the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. In v. 7 NIV is so concise that it slides over the significance of the pronoun ''these'' (toutois). Kelly (p. 253) translates this verse thus: ''Just as Sodom and Gommorah and the surrounding cities, which practiced immorality in the same way as these and lusted after different flesh, stand out as an example, undergoing as they do a punishment of everlasting fire. ''The key factors are ''these'' (toutois ---masculine, referring to ''angels'' [v. 6], not cities [feminine], and the words ''different flesh'' (sarkos heteras). Thus the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was seeking union with ''different flesh'' in a way similar to what the ''sons of God'' (angels?) did (Gen 6:2) when they mingled with ''the daughters of men'' (humans). [The Expositor's Bible Commentory, vol. 12, p. 390]
When 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6-7 are compared with each other and with Genesis 6:2-4 it should be obvious that a group of fallen angels took human wives for themselves with the result of offspring who were half angel and half human - the Nephilim.
"Sons of God" - would be those that follow the Lord. "Daughters of men" would be those new doctrines of men that by them bring forth offspring to a contrary spirit by which people are then carried away from the ways of the Lord.
At last someone gets it right. The very reason that God brought judgment in the days of Noah was because of the great falling away by those who had once been faithful and were at one time called Sons of God because of their faithfulness rather then just mere men. It is written that we are not to walk as mere men but as Sons of God. Angels good or bad do nor procreate. It is also written, "The gifts and callings of God are without repentance." The Angels were called to be spirits and soul and men are called to be flesh and blood with spirit and soul
The fallen Angels left the habitation of Heaven's work in the Light to follow Satan into Darkness. They are bound in spiritual chains in Hell, that place of spiritual darkness and unable to walk in the Light anymore. But from there they are allowed to tempt man but God uses that to His advantage in the plan of free will. All are tried whether they be Angels or man. Mankind however unlike the Devils is given much opportunity for redemption. But for how long?
The Demon Angels can not nor could they take on fleshly form of their own accord to procreate. They are and have been bound in Hell from the moment they sinned. In Christ however, "The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church." But outside of Christ, Hell has more and more sway over mankind and eventually if souls continue to reject the offer of Light and Salvation in Christ, they too will be swallowed up by Hells darkness which will with all who have chosen it be someday cast into the Lake of Fire as punishment for continuing to willfully sin in spite of the fact that so great a salvation has been provided for but continually rejected.
This is a very unpopular topic but Jesus, St. Paul, as well as St. Peter tells us the whole council of God and not just those things that are pleasant to hear.
However, as already mentioned, in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the phrase 'bene ha elohim' always refers to angels. Not to men.
Excerpt:
Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4. This by no means closes the debate. However, the view that Genesis 6:1-4 involves fallen angels mating with human females has a strong contextual, grammatical, and historical basis.
Just another excerpt, quote or opinion from the mentors' without 100% certainty.
There is a difference between what is considered righteous from that which is not.
This is the view of many Jewish authorities:
"The sons of the nobles, who married the daughters of the common people."
Many have added to, and taken away from the truth causing others to fall.
Just another excerpt, quote or opinion from the mentors' without 100% certainty.
There is a difference between what is considered righteous from that which is not.
This is the view of many Jewish authorities:
"The sons of the nobles, who married the daughters of the common people."
Many have added to, and taken away from the truth causing others to fall.
It is not the sons of the nobles who are referred to in 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4-5, and Jude 1:6-7, but fallen angels. This is detailed in post #61.
It is true that angels don't procreate. That is, angels are not born, and neither do they die. The number of angels has been constant since their initial creation before God created the earth.
It appears as though you do not understand the definition of "procreate".
Here it is for your edification
Definition of PROCREATE from Merriam Websters:
transitive verb
: to beget or bring forth (offspring) : propagate
intransitive verb
: to beget or bring forth offspring : reproduce
It appears as though you do not understand the definition of "procreate".
Here it is for your edification
Definition of PROCREATE from Merriam Websters:
transitive verb
: to beget or bring forth (offspring) : propagate
intransitive verb
: to beget or bring forth offspring : reproduce
I understand the definition of procreation just fine. That's why I said that angels are not born and that their number has been steady since their initial creation before God created the earth.
I understand the definition of procreation just fine. That's why I said that angels are not born and that their number has been steady since their initial creation before God created the earth.
an ability to "procreate" is not about being born
The ability to procreate, which angels do not have, is about causing someone else to be born.
The ability to procreate, which angels do not have, is about causing someone else to be born.
If you will exercise a bit of reading comprehension you will see that that is what I am talking about. Since angels don't procreate, there are no more angels in existence now then when they were originally created.
However, that does not mean that when they assume human form and appearance that they can't have sexual intercourse with a human female and cause her to become pregnant. If you will refer to post #61 and the grammatical structure of Jude 1:6-7 you will see that the angels did indeed go after strange flesh, referring to sexual intercourse with human women.
If you will exercise a bit of reading comprehension you will see that that is what I am talking about. Since angels don't procreate, there are no more angels in existence now then when they were originally created.
However, that does not mean that when they assume human form and appearance that they can't have sexual intercourse with a human female and cause her to become pregnant. If you will refer to post #61 and the grammatical structure of Jude 1:6-7 you will see that the angels did indeed go after strange flesh, referring to sexual intercourse with human women.
My reading comprehension is fine
There are no more angels now because God hasn't created anymore.
And please tell me where in Jude 1:6-7 it says angels "went after strange flesh"?? Good grief. Jude was writing to Jewish Christians to warn them against believing false teachings/false teachers and about what happens to those who rebel against God.
Jude 1:6-7
New International Version (NIV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:6-7
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[a] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
There are no more angels now because God hasn't created anymore.
Yes. I said that. Again, use a little reading comprehension.
Quote:
And please tell me where in Jude 1:6-7 it says angels "went after strange flesh"?? Good grief. Jude was writing to Jewish Christians to warn them against believing false teachings/false teachers and about what happens to those who rebel against God.
Jude 1:6-7
New International Version (NIV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:6-7
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[a] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Go back to post #61 where it has already been spelled out, actually read what I wrote about Jude 1:6-7, and exercise that reading comprehension. The grammatical rules demand that the nearest antecedent to which 'toutois' in verse 7 can refer is 'angels' in verse 6.
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