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See Adam was created in the image of God , and would have been a likely a Saviour for salvation if the plan of God would have been successful for the earth , as Adam was created of God from God , but Adam rebelled against God Word making him loose as unity was displaced .....................Then God choice Isaac son of Abraham to be sacrificed for to be a Saviour for the house of Abraham and the descendants of Isaac , but Isaac was born of man and Not divine and God could not use him for a Saviour of the world and he would be used as a temporary for a shadow of Lord Jesus Christ to come which people could be saved now and finished saved after Lord Jesus came who would have to be born of the divine to qualify for Saviour of the world ......................... So God created Lord Jesus in the image of God and placed Him in Mary who would be like a surrogate mother for the Living God to bring God only begotten Son into the world .................... See begotten means that Jesus was not born of Joseph and Mary , or God and Marys`s seed , But the Only begotten Son of God which by God alone were Mary would be the surrogate for the birth would by like the flesh of man , but Created Jesus by God alone ...................So Mary took Jesus and gave birth to Gods Son and raised Jesus like Her own for God for the development of Jesus and the plan of God .....
Jesus is both God and Man existing as one, just as we are both spirit and flesh, not separate entities or even natures, but one single being.
First.......how about addressing the fact that there IS something that Jesus, as God, does NOT know! Something that is contrary to what you claimed in post #16;
Quote:
He knows everything (Mt 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29)
Let's now read something that even Jesus, as God, does NOT know;
Mark 13
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Not even Jesus Himself, knows the day nor the hour of His return.
Can you explain how it is possible that the (2) can be ONE and yet one of the (2) is not privy to information concerning Himself?
After you figure how the above is possible with your, "...separate natures in His revelation...", doctrine, then you can go ahead and provide scriptures which prove that Jesus is BOTH God, a spirit being, and man, a flesh and blood being, at the same instant dwelling in heaven.
Everything that is written in the scriptures says just the opposite. Let's just read one scripture to confirm;
1 Cor.15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Now.....according to your claim, "....Jesus is both God and Man existing as one....", how is it possible that Jesus can be flesh and blood, but still occupy the kingdom of heaven and sit at the right hand of the God known as God the Father?
Jesus WAS a God in the beginning. This we know because He asked to go BACK to being equal to the God that became known as God the Father. Let's read it;
John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Amd again;
Phi.2
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But when Jesus was born of Mary He became a flesh a blood being. Let's read it;
Phil.2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Heb.2
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Let's now read what type of beings God and the angels are;
John 4
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Heb.1
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Now let's read where Jesus Himself tells us that He is NOT a spirit being, as God and the angels are, when He was upon the earth born of Mary. Let's read what He tells us He is NOT even AFTER dying on the cross;
Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Now if God is a spirit....and Jesus tells us even AFTER His death that He is still not a spirit.....what other kind of being is there left for Him to be? Just what He said...flesh and bones; a man!
Now these are just a few scriptures that let's us know that Jesus was NOT both a spirit being (a God) AND a flesh and blood being (a Man) at the same time when born of Mary. Nor could He be BOTH and occupy the kingdom of heaven!
But you claim otherwise! Please provide book, chapter and verse which supports your claim!
.
Last edited by Eccl 12vs13; 07-21-2013 at 09:24 AM..
First.......how about addressing the fact that there IS something that Jesus, as God, does NOT know! Something that is contrary to what you claimed in post #16;
But you claim otherwise! Please provide book, chapter and verse which supports your claim!
Your argument is much as the scribes and Pharisees would have argued with Jesus when He walked among us. They demanded "signs" and He said none would be given them. I have confessed that the understanding of Jesus as both God and Man is mind boggling when viewed historically as the Hebrews understood the singularity of Man as opposed to the philosophical duality leeched into Christianity by the Greeks.
Do not the Scriptures teach that a man and woman shall be joined and be "one flesh?" They may not cohabit the same space but they are still one in the eyes of God. And Jesus prayed that we would be one with Him. With your argument you may dismiss His word because it is not possible with you.
Quote:
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:20-21). Just as Christians become one with God, Jesus, and their fellow Christians, a husband and wife become one. It is no longer about what each individual wants, but what the family needs. It is the idea that it doesn't matter if you talk to the husband or the wife, you'll get basically the same answer. (as with talking to Jesus or God)
Being one excludes all others. That is why Jesus said, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24). Being one with God excludes anything else from being first in your life. A husband and wife being one excludes all other people. That is why
Paul said a man cannot join himself with a prostitute and not effect his relationship with Jesus (I Corinthians 6:16). There is no room for a sinful relationship and a righteous relationship in one person.
Not only do I not know what Jesus does not know--neither do you. Picking a few verses from the totality of the Scripture you have become like the blind men touching the elephant and concluding incorrectly what it means.
John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indianlegend,
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
MORAL.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen!
Until one is able to touch and see and feel the whole elephant, a man remains "scattered man", the result of sin. For a man who claims to be one with Christ every verse of Scripture can only be weighed in light of all that Jesus both did and said, and within the confounds of all testimony both holy and profane that shows the life of Christ among us.
Like a lawyer you will feel justified in your conclusions because lawyers are into crafting truth to meet a particular story.
I leave this thread to you, because THIS IS your story, not the testimony of the Gospels.
Do not the Scriptures teach that a man and woman shall be joined and be "one flesh?" They may not cohabit the same space but they are still one in the eyes of God. And Jesus prayed that we would be one with Him. With your argument you may dismiss His word because it is not possible with you.
Not only do I not know what Jesus does not know--neither do you.
Like a lawyer you will feel justified in your conclusions because lawyers are into crafting truth to meet a particular story.
Let's look at a few of your claims;
First - You state that Jesus asked that we be one with Him. But do you understand just what He meant by being "one" with both Him and the Father?
Do you know that there is only one place in ALL of God's word that tells just how The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit and ALL of His children are ALL "one"? Have you searched for this knowledge, or have you just accepted the teachings of man and the doctrine of the "trinity"?
Second - You claim that neither you nor I know what Jesus does not know. But this is not true. For God's word tells us that Jesus does NOT know the day nor hour the He will return to render judgement upon the earth. Let's read it again;
Mark 13
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
And let's not forget who it is that is speaking above....Jesus Himself. So was Jesus lying when He said that no man, angel, nor Himself knew the day of His return?
Third - You accuse me of being like a lawyer, "...crafting truth to meet a particular story.". But how is reading the bible and selecting scriptures that describe a subject "...crafting truth to meet a particular story."? Is this not how God instructs us to read and understand His word? Let's read....
Isa.28
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
We are commanded by God to search here and there. We are instructed to put subject matter with the same subject matter.
This post is NOT about the law....which is why you will not find scriptures pertaining to God's laws!
This post is NOT about salvation.....which is why you will not find scriptures pertaining to the subject of salvation.
This post is about whether or not Jesus was BOTH 100% God AND 100% man when born of Mary!
To which I presented proof, through scriptures, that Jesus was born a flesh and blood man for that He could die and take away the sins of the world;
Heb.2
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
[14] Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Phil.2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God's word tells us there are only TWO types of beings;
1 Cor.15
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
And not one place in ALL of God's word can you ever read where God said that either being can be BOTH at the same time!
Lastly you said, "I leave this thread to you, because THIS IS your story, not the testimony of the Gospels."
But this IS the testimony of the Gospels. They DO say that Jesus was not made as a spirit being when He was born of Mary. Even HE says that He was not a spirit being even after His death on the cross.
I am only doing what God word commands us to do;
1 John 4
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
You claim that Jesus is BOTH 100% God AND 100% Man...but not once have you presented scriptures to support your claim.
Let's read what else we are to do with God's word;
2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
We are commanded to use God's word for doctrine, for reproof and for CORRECTION!
Again.....you claim that Jesus is BOTH 100% God AND 100% Man.....well......where's the beef?
Please present book, chapter and verse that supports your claim!
Do you agree with gospel writer John at Revelation 3 v 14 that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God ?___________
Let's read what God's word really says;
Rev.3
[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The above does NOT say that Jesus is the beginning of the creation. Sounds like this is speaking about an angel and not Jesus Christ. For what angel is equal to God?
Let's now read who it was that created everything that was created;
John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col.1
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Heb.1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
So tell me.....how is it that Jesus was the beginning of the creation when EVERYTHING that was created was created by Him?
He would have had to be around BEFORE creation! He would have to have been around in the beginning!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And who is this that is being spoken of? The scriptures tells us. Let's read it....
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Do you agree with gospel writer John at Revelation 3 v 14 that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God ?___________
No... not the begining of. He created all things.
Colossians 1:16 For in him [Jesus] all things werecreated: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Heb.13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever." Therefore Jesus could not stop being God or change any aspect of His deity. As God, Jesus Christ is immutable. When Jesus took upon Himself the form of man, His humanity remained distinct from His deity. His deity was not changed by becoming man. As of the incarnation, Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man. And will be forever. As man, Jesus is currently seated in session at the right hand of the Father in heaven (see Hebrews 1:3).As God, Jesus is omnipresent. One example of that is that the deity of Jesus indwells the Church-Age believer (see John 14:20, 17:26).
The pre-incarnate Jesus has eternally existed as God along with the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Ever since His incarnation Jesus has been and will forever be the God-man. Jesus Christ is both eternal and infinite God and true humanity. This is known theologically as the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not give up His deity when He took upon Himself the form of man. The false doctrine of Kenosis says that Christ emptied Himself of His deity when He became a man. The true doctrine of Kenosis states that Jesus simply refrained from the independent use of His deity in order to benefit Himself during His First Advent.
In Matthew 4:3 Satan tempted Jesus to use His deity to turn stones into bread in order to ease His hunger which would have been contrary to the Father's plan for Jesus during His First Advent. Jesus, having become a member of the human race, though still God, was to depend on sustaining ministry of the Holy Spirit instead of on His deity.
The doctrine of the Hypostatic union of Jesus Christ states that in the Person of Jesus are two distinct natures, (His deity, and His humanity) which are inseparably united. The attributes of His deity do not bleed over into the attributes of His humanity, or vice versa. Thus Jesus is not half god and half man, He is fully God and true humanity in one Person.
Here is a quick study on the doctrines of the hypostatic union and kenosis of Jesus Christ.
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