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The Pre-Trib Rapture is a false doctrine because it isn't going to happen. Believe it if you want to but then don't complain when the antichrist arrives and you are still here.
When referring to the end times, Jesus said that "many will be deceived" - and MANY millions of people already are.
Pre-Tribbers believe that they are a "special" breed of person. NO ONE in the history of mankind has EVER been rescued from torture and death - but these people think that they will be. God is going to spare them when He hasn't spared any other group of people. It's simple arrogance on their (your) part.
It is one of Satan's greatest deceptions.
You, as do many, simply disregard scripture which shows that the church has to be raptured before the Tribulation can begin. As was shown in post #2, the apostle Paul assured the Thessalonians that they would not go through the day of the Lord which was with reference to the Tribulation.
You also choose to ignore the fact that the church is shown to be in heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on the earth.
You choose to ignore Scripture and base your rejection of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church on some presumed arrogance on the part of those who believe the Scriptures.
You, as do many, simply disregard scripture which shows that the church has to be raptured before the Tribulation can begin. As was shown in post #2, the apostle Paul assured the Thessalonians that they would not go through the day of the Lord which was with reference to the Tribulation.
You also choose to ignore the fact that the church is shown to be in heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on the earth.
You choose to ignore Scripture and base your rejection of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church on some presumed arrogance on the part of those who believe the Scriptures.
Do you believe in the Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, or NO Rapture at all?
I lean towards no Rapture but, if there is one, it will be Post-Trib.
Did Jesus lean toward Rapture, or our situation being like the days of Noah according to Matthew 24 v 37 ?_____
There was No rapture in Noah's day, and No rapture at Sodom and Gomorrah.
Noah and family came out of that wicked system.
Lot and daughters came out of wicked cities
All of them remained or stayed on earth.
According to Proverbs 2 vs 21,22 who ' remains ' [stays ] on earth ?________
So, just as in the days of Noah, God kept Noah safe inside the Ark rooms, Not safely away where he could not breathe.
What instructions did Isaiah give at Isaiah 26 v 20 ?___________
Jesus taught to pray 'thy kingdom come'. Never did Jesus teach to pray to 'take me away to the kingdom' or to pray to 'take me up to the kingdom', but rather for the kingdom of a thousand years to come.
He's coming at the 'time of separation' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
Where do the separated 'sheep' go of verses 32,37 ?_______
Matthew 25:31 speaks of the return of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation. Not of the rapture of the church to which 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 refers. These are two different events.
Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the judgment of the nations and involves the judgment of both believers and unbelievers who survive to the end of the Tribulation. During the Tribulation, because of the increased lawlessness most people's love will grow cold as stated in Matt. 24:12. Believers in the Tribulation will be characterized by their willingness to help the Jews while unbelievers will not be willing.
The sheep in verse 32 represent Tribulational believers who will go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.
The goats, also in verse 32 represent unbelievers who will not be allowed to go into the Millennial kingdom, but will instead be ordered into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels as per Matt. 25:41.
As stated, Tribulational believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. In the Millennium a person who is 100 years old will be considered a youth, and anyone who dies before reaching that age will be thought of as accursed.
Isa. 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
Now, if the rapture of the church were post-tribulational and everyone gets resurrected at that time then everyone would be in resurrection bodies when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation and there would be no mortals left to go into the Millennial kingdom.
But the church will be resurrected at the rapture of the church before the Tribulation begins.
Tribulational martyrs (Revelation 20:4) as well as Old Testament saints will be resurrected when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, while Tribulational survivors, both believer and unbeliever, will go though the judgment of the nations, and believers will go into the Millennial kingdom while unbelievers will go into the eternal fire. It is this of which John the Baptist prophesied in Matthew 3:11-12 when Jesus will gather His wheat (believers) into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff (unbelievers) with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12] "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
This is also prophesied in Malachi 4:1 which speaks of the destruction of the wicked (the unbeliever). This does not refer to annihilation or cessation of existence; the wicked will be resurrected (Daniel 12:2) after the completion of the Millennium, but to total exclusion from God's kingdom (Matthew 25:46).
Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."
Did Jesus lean toward Rapture, or our situation being like the days of Noah according to Matthew 24 v 37 ?_____
There was No rapture in Noah's day, and No rapture at Sodom and Gomorrah.
Noah and family came out of that wicked system.
Lot and daughters came out of wicked cities
All of them remained or stayed on earth.
According to Proverbs 2 vs 21,22 who ' remains ' [stays ] on earth ?________
So, just as in the days of Noah, God kept Noah safe inside the Ark rooms, Not safely away where he could not breathe.
What instructions did Isaiah give at Isaiah 26 v 20 ?___________
Jesus taught to pray 'thy kingdom come'. Never did Jesus teach to pray to 'take me away to the kingdom' or to pray to 'take me up to the kingdom', but rather for the kingdom of a thousand years to come.
The resurrected and raptured church will return with Christ from heaven to the earth when He returns to establish His Millennial kingdom. This is seen by a comparison of Revelation 19:14 with Revelation 17:14.
When Christ returns He will be accompanied by the armies which are in heaven. Now while this may also include angels, it refers as well to His bride, which is stated in Revelation 19:8 to be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean just as are the armies mentioned in Revelation 19:14.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
And comparing Revelation 19:14 with Revelation 17:14 we see that those who are with Christ when He returns are His called, chosen and faithful followers.
Revelation 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Since the raptured and resurrected church - the bride is in heaven at the time of the Tribulation (Revelation 19:7) the called and chosen and faithful who are with Christ when He returns refers to the church, and perhaps to the martyred Tribulational saints who will be resurrected at that time (Revelation 20:4).
As will all church age believers. We will either be among the group of believers who have fallen asleep in Christ and will return with Christ from heaven to the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:14), or we will be among those who are alive and remain on the earth when He returns and will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15,17). And then the entire church will go with Christ into heaven for the duration of the Tribulation, and then return to the earth with Him at which time He will establish His Millennial kingdom.
RW - I agree with you that the Pre-Trib Rapture is a false doctrine.
The "Great Multitude" are those people who have been martyred for their belief in Jesus Christ.
- There is no scripture of The Great Multitude dying.
1st. Jesus did not speak of a (resurrection) with a Rapture.
Matt.24:29-31 - Matt.25 - Rev.3:10-12
2nd. Paul spoke of a Resurrection with a Rapture. - 1Cor.15:51,52
'Alive And Remain" - 1Thess.4:17
Paul also spoke of
"A Resurrection of the dead Both Of The Just & The Unjust" - Acts 24:15 - Rev.20:13
3rd. The Revelation Of Jesus Christ shows 2 Resurrections. - Rev.20
~ The first resurrection is only of those beheaded by the beast. - Rev.20:4,6
Which also includes the 1444,000 - Rev.13:15 - Rev.20:4
Jesus told The 12 Apostles Of The Lamb that in The Regeneration
they Too Would Sit on 12 Thrones Judging The 12 Tribes of Israel. - Matt.19:28
And John saw Throne and They That Sat On Them And Judgment Was Committed To Them. - Rev.20:4
The 144,000 Of All The Tribes Of The Children Of Israel Is Who The 12 Apostles will have Judgment over during the 1,000 reign of Jesus Davidic Rule on earth.
~ One resurrection of 'the just and the unjust'
from The Sea Before The Throne of God Rev.15:2 - 20:13 & from Death & Hades. - Rev.20:13
Last edited by RevelationWriter; 08-04-2013 at 03:54 AM..
As will all church age believers. We will either be among the group of believers who have fallen asleep in Christ and will return with Christ from heaven to the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:14), or we will be among those who are alive and remain on the earth when He returns and will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15,17). And then the entire church will go with Christ into heaven for the duration of the Tribulation, and then return to the earth with Him at which time He will establish His Millennial kingdom.
- Paul did not know - Rev.3 0r Rev. 20
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We will either be among the group of believers who have fallen asleep in Christ and will return with Christ from heaven to the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:14), or we will be among those who are alive and remain on the earth when He returns and will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15,17). And then the entire church will go with Christ into heaven for the duration of the Tribulation, and then return to the earth with Him at which time He will establish His Millennial kingdom.
