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as usual .... nay sayers ramble on about having the Bible doesn't say this ... doesn't say that .... or well, I can make the Bible say whatever .... but when shown, had never wanted to in the first place.
as usual .... nay sayers ramble on about having the Bible doesn't say this ... doesn't say that .... or well, I can make the Bible say whatever .... but when shown, had never wanted to in the first place.
The Bible does teach many important truths explicitly and clearly. For example:
Quote:
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
There we see an eternal truth laid out for us in unmistakable clarity. Christ is the only way to God. There is no other way. This passage teaches this clearly and leaves no room for doubt because this eternal truth is essential to our salvation.
The Bible offers a clear witness of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost ... though the Son is very rarely referred to as "God" and the Holy Ghost never is. But that Trinity is clearly set forth in scripture.
It isn't your fault that the formalized Trinity is not set forth as clearly and unmistakably as this. It just isn't. Have you ever bothered to question why that is exactly?
The Bible does teach many important truths explicitly and clearly. For example:
There we see an eternal truth laid out for us in unmistakable clarity. Christ is the only way to God. There is no other way. This passage teaches this clearly and leaves no room for doubt because this eternal truth is essential to our salvation.
The Bible offers a clear witness of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost ... though the Son is very rarely referred to as "God" and the Holy Ghost never is. But that Trinity is clearly set forth in scripture.
It isn't your fault that the formalized Trinity is not set forth as clearly and unmistakably as this. It just isn't. Have you ever bothered to question why that is exactly?
As you said
"The Bible offers a clear witness of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost "
unlike me it will be your fault for not believing ..... so again God's eternal truth once comes about the wicked with their own words:
Proverbs 22:12
The eyes of the Lord keep watch over knowledge, but he frustrates the words of the unfaithful.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Post #1 .... "The Bible offers a clear witness of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost "
The Bible does not teach the Trinity. The Jews had the Old Testament much longer than did the Christians and never concluded that there were three persons in God.
"Hear O Isreal, the Lord is One"
The early Christian Church didn't claim that there were three persons in God either. If the first generation Christians had done so, they would hardly have been allowed to remain a sect within orthodox Judaism. (See Acts of the Apostles).
It was only necessary when the Christian community began to claim that Jesus, in addition to being the messiah, was divine that (about 85 AD) that it had to come up with the three persons in God idea to avoid heresy.
But it didn't work. The Jews anathmatized Christains and excluded them from their synagogues (as "minim" or apostates ). See the 12th of the 18 Benedictions.
The Bible does not teach the Trinity. The Jews had the Old Testament much longer than did the Christians and never concluded that there were three persons in God.
"Hear O Isreal, the Lord is One"
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel! The LORD[Yah-weh] is our God, the LORD is one [echad]!
In view of other Scripture such as Isaiah 9:6 and Zechariah 14:3-4 which refer to the Messiah as God, Echad suggests a unity of Persons in the Godhead in the same way that Echad is used of the unity of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.
Quote:
The early Christian Church didn't claim that there were three persons in God either. If the first generation Christians had done so, they would hardly have been allowed to remain a sect within orthodox Judaism. (See Acts of the Apostles). It was only necessary when the Christian community began to claim that Jesus, in addition to being the messiah, was divine that (about 85 AD) that it had to come up with the three persons in God idea to avoid heresy.
But it didn't work. The Jews anathmatized Christains and excluded them from their synagogues (as "minim" or apostates ). See the 12th of the 18 Benedictions.
That the Messiah would be God Himself was prophesied in Isaiah 9:6.
Isa. 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah understood that in some way, the Messiah would be God.
Zechariah 14:3 Then the LORD [Yah-weh] will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4] In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
This is a reference to Jesus Christ who when He returns will set foot on the Mount of Olives Acts 1:10-12.
Yes, the Bible teaches that while God is One, there are three who are identified as God.
The Holy Spirit who is shown in Scripture to have the attributes of personhood - He hears, and speaks [John 16:13], and is shown to be distinct from both the Father and the Son [John 14:26], is identified as God in Acts 5:3-4.
Hear Israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one. Duet. 6:4
If Yeshua is YHWH he is the only one who is. No one else can be YHWH if Yeshua is.
It does not necessarily establish the Trinity as formalized by 4th and 5th century Church councils, but you are forgetting something.
Elohim = Gods.
In Genesis, during the creation of man, God is not talking to himself.
Quote:
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
The Gods (Elohim) are talking amongst themselves. Every time "God" is referenced in scripture, plurality is also invoked. Our habit of putting it in singular form in English is a flawed translational solution at best.
In Genesis, during the creation of man, God is not talking to himself.
The Gods (Elohim) are talking amongst themselves. Every time "God" is referenced in scripture, plurality is also invoked. Our habit of putting it in singular form in English is a flawed translational solution at best.
I would agree with you, godofthunder, except that I would add this:
We are in the habit of capitalizing "God" when we use it to refer to the Abrahamic God, the God of the Bible, the God whom we Christians worship. It is a title of sorts. It is how we address "Elohim" and how we distinguish between Elohim and the gods Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 8 when he says "though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth." The Gods (Elohim) we worship are "one," but they are not "one" in the way the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds insist they are. When we use the word "God," we can be referring to God the Father (as is usually the case), or to either of the other two members of the Godhead (although, as you pointed out in another post), there is nowhere in the Bible where the Holy Ghost is specifically referred to as "God." We can also, however -- and probably should -- realize that "God" can be used as a collective noun, much as "Elohim" was by the Hebrews. Like the words "team," "congregation," and "jury," they are used with a singular verb and yet we all know that they are comprised of more than one individuals.
How different Christians today would understand the nature of "God" had those who established those early Creeds simply recognized these few simple facts, and not felt so compelled to invent a new God who would be acceptable to all of the different groups of people who were striving to understand Him.
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