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June, based on what your stated. You should embrace Universalism then. For consider that the problem with Eternal Torment was that you could not see how a loved one could be subjected to the same. What about as Atheist that believes that at the end of this life, your finished. That is still a tragedy. So why would you not embrace Universalism for a loved on that has died? Is it not logical to believe that if there is a God and that He is ALL POWERFUL, that He would have the power to remove the evil from anyone?
I hope you consider universal salvation to give you a hope in those same loved ones that has departed from you.
Didn't want to let this one slip by....
trettep, June understands what you are saying in terms of the reasons to consider Universalism, but she's an atheist. --So she'd clearly have to believe prior to embracing any segment, denomination, or particular doctrine regarding Christianity....
trettep, June understands what you are saying in terms of the reasons to consider Universalism, but she's an atheist. --So she'd clearly have to believe prior to embracing any segment, denomination, or particular doctrine regarding Christianity....
That is true, that you have to believe. God creates the Athiest also for his purpose.
Dave, June hears ya. June thinks that depending on the atheist, (and depending on the Christian) that there cannot help but be contention, which is unfortunate, but she can see your point....
"Yikes" in response to the bolded part, though! --June has a number of very good friends who are Christians! June's two minister friends don't loath her, but she does agree with you that they did their best in terms of sharing, challenging, and encouraging her when she needed and welcomed them in doing so. --And yes, June does believe that in the end they were saddened by the fact that she was never able to come to believe....Although in thinking back now, June can't help but wonder whether it was she who let them down, not the other way around. June does not feel they "failed." Rather, they tried, and were incredibly accepting and receptive. We remained good friends even after June abandoned her "seeking stage" and resumed being a non-believer....
June, what is it you do not believe?...It seems that Jews do not believe in Hell nor is the "Christian" concept found in the Torah...Nor is the Trinity, for that matter...Try seeking from the Jewish perspective, after all, "Christiany" evolved from Judaism, whether it evolved correctly or not remains to be seen...I think, from your "Christian upbringing, that your search may have been constrained to that type of documentation, instead of opening your mind to the Judaic perspective...Perhaps you atheist perspective is not so atheistic but rather agnostic or perhaps HaShem is guiding you toward Truth and has given you a spirit capable of seperating Truth from BS (To put it bluntly (Please don't sit me in the corner for 2 weeks))...Just sit back and think, "How could all of this have evolved by accident?"...It is all much too complex to have just been an accident...Just because man writes what he thinks is going on does not make it Truth...Even of myself I say the same...
That there is a God, a Supreme Being, or an Ultimate Reality. June doesn't feel that "objective truth" exists.
In her "seeking" years she came darn close to believing that there existed a form of , if not the presence of the Holy Spirit present in the world, but I can assure you, it was extremely non-traditional in it's conceptualization in June's mind!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
...It seems that Jews do not believe in Hell nor is the "Christian" concept found in the Torah...Nor is the Trinity, for that matter...Try seeking from the Jewish perspective, after all, "Christiany" evolved from Judaism, whether it evolved correctly or not remains to be seen...I think, from your "Christian upbringing, that your search may have been constrained to that type of documentation, instead of opening your mind to the Judaic perspective...Perhaps you atheist perspective is not so atheistic but rather agnostic or perhaps HaShem is guiding you toward Truth and has given you a spirit capable of seperating Truth from BS (To put it bluntly (Please don't sit me in the corner for 2 weeks))...Just sit back and think, "How could all of this have evolved by accident?"...It is all much too complex to have just been an accident...Just because man writes what he thinks is going on does not make it Truth...Even of myself I say the same...
Ummm....June is not sure she could return to any sort of "seeking" at this point in time. The fours years she spent doing so were exhaustive, and fraught with frustration. And confusion. When she finally gave up, there was a sense of peace that returned, and things felt back on course. In order to resume "seeking mode" from a Judaic perspective June would have to start all over again and try to find a way to presume that there is a God. --But she will admit you do make a very, very good point in what you suggest and point out..
The other problem is that June doesn't believe that "Truth" (with a capital "T") exists, so attempting to embrace Judaism might be a pretty tall order!
But June thanks you, truly, for your suggestion. Like I said, you make some very good points.
P.S. And no, June is not going to "sit you in the corner" for two weeks for the "BS." (Just try and not post it too often, simply because we have members who find it offensive, that's all.)
That is true, that you have to believe. God creates the Athiest also for his purpose.
God did Not create Satan to become a Satan and a Devil. Satan turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.
Satan is not his proper name. Satan just means resister and devil means slanderer. [ serpent as deceiver and dragon as destroyer ] Satan is a self-made sinner.
Satan started out as a beautiful cherub angel. - Ezekiel 28 vs 13-19
Adam was not forced to break God's law. Adam used his free-will choices to choose to disobey God.
God did Not create Satan to become a Satan and a Devil. Satan turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.
Satan is not his proper name. Satan just means resister and devil means slanderer. [ serpent as deceiver and dragon as destroyer ] Satan is a self-made sinner.
Satan started out as a beautiful cherub angel. - Ezekiel 28 vs 13-19
Adam was not forced to break God's law. Adam used his free-will choices to choose to disobey God.
God said that all things were created by Him.
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
God said that all things were created by Him.
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Please back up to verse 15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. An image is a reflection Not the image himself.
Jesus is the first born of all creation. God is never born, Jesus, according to gospel writer John, is the beginning of the creation by God - Rev. 1 v 5; 3 v 14. God is Creator [ Eph. 3 v 9 ] God had No beginning, so Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning because Jesus is first born in the heavens. All the rest of creation came because of Jesus, and yes 'created FOR Jesus' - Col. 1 v 16 B.
Please back up to verse 15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. An image is a reflection Not the image himself.
Jesus is the first born of all creation. God is never born, Jesus, according to gospel writer John, is the beginning of the creation by God - Rev. 1 v 5; 3 v 14. God is Creator [ Eph. 3 v 9 ] God had No beginning, so Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning because Jesus is first born in the heavens. All the rest of creation came because of Jesus, and yes 'created FOR Jesus' - Col. 1 v 16 B.
Not sure what your point is Matthew. I'm saying that the Atheist is created by God and that even Satan was. I'm saying that ALL things were created by God. Are you disagreeing with that?
Mike, June had every intention of responding to your post last night, but found that she needed to take the time to not only "re-group" her brain, but to do some reading, as well. So she did that. Yes, Mike, thanks to you, June was in her attic last night, rummaging through boxes of books, looking for the ones she read eons ago, and from there went back to "the source" itself, the Bible, and read Genesis (specifically pertaining to the Fall) prior to responding to your post. --And she's got to say, for the most part, she now understands, with (almost) near clarity what your explanation entails! The only question she has left is....WHY?
June's "why' pertains specifically to God's ultimate design, and pre-determination in orchestrating the Fall, whereby thus ensues the basis for the necessity for salvation through belief in Christ. She now understands all that you mentioned in your post, but for the life of her can't understand why God would have orchestrated things the way Genesis says he did, such that salvation would even be necessary. --Let alone the penalty that is to be paid (eternal damnation) for those who don't accept Christ as God and Savior.
June spent the better part of today re-reading the books she dug out of the attic, re-reading Genesis (more than once, at that!) and did, in fact, write you out a response to your post. However, she will have to decide whether to send it to you via DM, as in editing it, she feels that in large part what she's written would be "off topic." --And woe to a moderator who would post off topic, at the risk of potentially having to infract herself?
But let it suffice to say that given the reading June did today, yes: She understands your post. She still has an abundance of questions as a result, but like she said, she can't derail your thread by posting them on it. Perhaps she'll entertain the notion of starting a thread which specifically addresses the Fall, why it was written into God's "Divine Plan" such that there would be the necessity for obtaining salvation and being reunited, ultimately, with God once again through belief in what Jesus achieved via the crucifixion....
So her thanks again. June "relearned" a lot today in all that she read, and on an ending note, found that what you said about June's not necessarily being destined to eternal damnation to be true based on a number of things that she read. --She doesn't agree with it (for obvious reasons) but nonetheless, it was enlightening to go back and re-read some of what was read ages ago, and to learn a few new things along the way while she was at it!
So thank you! You actually got an atheist to sit and read the bible on this cold Sunday, and ponder your OP that much more! --Not exactly an ordinary, every day, common experience for an atheist, so smile!
Take gentle care and enjoy the remainder of the weekend, all!
Well, everyone should visit their attic once in a while June, if only to keep the spiders and whatever else may have moved in up there on their toes. And you sure did a lot of reading.
The question of why God allowed the fall is easily answered. God created both angels and man with volition. He wanted His created beings to have the ability to make moral choices. In order for volition to exist and to function God had to therefore allow both the angels and man to fall. And since God is omniscience He had always known that the respective falls of angels and man would occur and made provision for them. The Bible does not reveal whatever means of salvation God provided for the angels who fell. It does of course reveal God's plan of salvation for man.
But the issue is more involved than that.
The angelic rebellion which was instigated by the cherub angel who since his fall is known by the titles 'Satan' and 'the devil' took place before the creation of man. And yet, Satan and the fallen angels will not be sent to the lake of fire until after the end of human history (time as opposed to the eternal state) when the Millennium ends. After the Millennium the eternal state - the new heavens and new earth will begin (Revelation chapter 21). In between Satan's fall and the carrying out of his sentence to the lake of fire, is all of human history.
Because Satan wasn't sent immediately to the lake of fire, and because the angels are intently looking into those things involving God's redemptive plan for man (1 Peter 1:12), it can be deduced that Satan objected to his sentence, and that while God created man for the purpose of bringing many sons into glory (Romans 8:29-30), he is also using mankind to demonstrate to all of creation that the angels who rebelled were without excuse. Since volition was involved in the angelic fall, man's volition is the issue in showing why the angels who were disobedient are without excuse.
The angels are a higher creation than man. They are both physically and mentally superior to man. They had access to heaven, to the very throne room of God, they knew and saw God's glory, and yet approximately a third of the angels chose to side with Satan in his rebellion. They made a volitional decision to go with Satan. And so, God created man as a lower creation, confined him to planet earth, and gave him the same volition which the angels had. God then provided a test for man's volition. He told Adam to not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He then allowed Satan to tempt Adam.
When Satan had succeeded in causing man to fall he thought he had thwarted God's plan. But instead, he merely advanced God's plan to the next stage. Immediately after the fall God promised that a Savior would come into the world and that He would crush Satan (Gen. 3:15). Though out human history prior to the Cross salvation had always been through faith in the promise of the coming Messiah. Since that time in history when Jesus went to the Cross we look back at the Cross for our salvation. Through the various dispensations or stewardships of human history, and the different circumstances involved in each dispensation, the means of salvation has always been the same. The issue is that each time a member of the human race, not having had the advantages of the angels, responds to God's offer of salvation through the gospel it further demonstrates that the angels who rebelled were absolutely without excuse. Through out human history Satan's appeal trial is taking place and Satan is being given an opportunity to prove that God is being unfair for sentencing him to the lake of fire.
If you're inclined to do some more reading June, here is a five part series on what I referred to above concerning the 'angelic conflict' which is the spiritual warfare which rages though out human history.
I was first taught of this angelic conflict by my original pastor, Robert B. Thieme Jr. of Berachah Church which is in Houston TX. He is now with the Lord. Donald Grey Barnhouse who was a well known pastor and theologian wrote a book called 'The Invisible War' which deals with this conflict in the spiritual realm, and my current pastors teach it as well.
Here is 57 hours of class in MP3 concerning the angelic conflict by Pastor Robert McLaughlin of Grace Bible Church.
Not sure what your point is Matthew. I'm saying that the Atheist is created by God and that even Satan was. I'm saying that ALL things were created by God. Are you disagreeing with that?
Sorry I was not more clear. I wanted to stress the difference between being ' created ' and ' made '.
Satan and Adam were ' created ' by God, but they ' made ' themselves into rebels.
They made themselves into poor quality clay that could No longer be molded by the Great Potter into a useful vessel.
Like Satan or Adam choosing, an atheist makes himself [ not created to be an atheist ] but makes himself into one.
- James 1 vs 13-15
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--June has a number of very good friends who are Christians! June's two minister friends don't loath her, but she does agree with you that they did their best in terms of sharing, challenging, and encouraging her when she needed and welcomed them in doing so. --And yes, June does believe that in the end they were saddened by the fact that she was never able to come to believe....Although in thinking back now, June can't help but wonder whether it was she who let them down, not the other way around. June does not feel they "failed." Rather, they tried, and were incredibly accepting and receptive. We remained good friends even after June abandoned her "seeking stage" and resumed being a non-believer....
(Just try and not post it too often, simply because we have members who find it offensive, that's all.)
