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Pleroo, forgive me for being brash, but of cause that is what they are saying. The bottom line is if you disagree with what they believe about eternal torment, you are not speaking for God but against him,and being argumentative in the process,
I realize that is how Mike sees things. And it certainly seemed that's what Dave was saying as well, but he implied that I was misjudging him, so I'm asking him to clarify.
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even though universalism is as clear in any bible(using any translation)as eternal torment is to them.
Exactly.
I think that the upshot of all this is that the position that you eventually embrace reveals the state of your Soul . . . and what is most compatible with it. I must confess that the only thing that ever troubled me as I struggled with my human weaknesses was the notion in Zoroastrianism that where you reside after death is with those who are most compatible (resonant) with you. It was a strong motivator to change my state of mind and desires . . . far more than the absurd notion of an eternal torment Hell.
I think that the upshot of all this is that the position that you eventually embrace reveals the state of your Soul . . . and what is most compatible with it. I must confess that the only thing that ever troubled me as I struggled with my human weaknesses was the notion in Zoroastrianism that where you reside after death is with those who are most compatible (resonant) with you. It was a strong motivator to change my state of mind and desires . . . far more than the absurd notion of an eternal torment Hell.
Agreed. At the very least, examining if one would want to spend any real length of time with people with a similar mindset as oneself can be very eye-opening. If not, why not?
There are so many flaws in the lake of fire as a place of eternal torment. Firstly, the wicked will not be immortal. They will be mortal. Also, God is a consuming fire. Which means the body of the wicked would be mortal and consumable and therefore would cease to exist by means of the fire. There could then be no eternal torment.
The beast and the false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for a thousand years before they are joined by Satan. Revelation 19:20 compared with Revelation 20:2-3 compared with Revelation 20:10. And after having been in the lake of fire for a thousand years, it is said not only of the beast and the false prophet, but of Satan, that they will be tormented forever and ever - Revelation 20:10.
No cessation of existence, and no reading into the text. And no getting through to those who simply refuse to see and believe what is plainly written, and a wasted effort arguing with them about it.
The beast and the false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for a thousand years before they are joined by Satan. Revelation 19:20 compared with Revelation 20:2-3 compared with Revelation 20:10. And after having been in the lake of fire for a thousand years, it is said not only of the beast and the false prophet, but of Satan, that they will be tormented forever and ever - Revelation 20:10.
No cessation of existence, and no reading into the text. And no getting through to those who simply refuse to see and believe what is plainly written, and a wasted effort arguing with them about it.
Perhaps you've answered this before, Mike, but what in the book of Revelation do you take literally and what do you accept as figurative language, and how do you distinguish between the two?
Perhaps you've answered this before, Mike, but what in the book of Revelation do you take literally and what do you accept as figurative language, and how do you distinguish between the two?
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment is to be understood in the same literal sense as eternal life is to be understood. And so the passages I referenced in Revelation are to be understood.
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment is to be understood in the same literal sense as eternal life is to be understood. And so the passages I referenced in Revelation are to be understood.
So, the fact that Rev is the recollection of a vision and is written in symbolic language doesn't give you pause in taking those passages literally?
Do you believe God is a consuming Fire?
Do you believe the wicked have immortality?
I believe that God will be the judge and justly administer his righteous authority in any way He decides.... that's what a judge does, that's what judging is. Judging is not objective like you ask, it is not black and white, it involves subjective analysis that requires a view of our hearts. Who upon this earth can do such a thing? Nothing He will do, or can do, is kept from us within scripture. To believe how God will determine the fate of anyone is to place ones self in His shoes, to be god .... and as our heart bears witness to our love, or lack thereof, each of us will come to face to face with the God of creation ...and be judged according to scripture.
I sense your questioning is bridled judgement and I don't like that. Don't push it.
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment is to be understood in the same literal sense as eternal life is to be understood. And so the passages I referenced in Revelation are to be understood.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
So, the fact that Rev is the recollection of a vision and is written in symbolic language doesn't give you pause in taking those passages literally?
Simply open your eyes. The verses I referenced in Revelation (see post #144) are just as literal as Matthew 25:41-46 (which is the very reason I included Matthew 25:41-46 in post #146) which speaks of the same punishment as the verses in Revelation. The eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is just as literal as the eternal life which is also mentioned in that same verse.
I think this is clear enough for anyone who is willing to open their eyes and see. For that reason, we are done here.
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment is to be understood in the same literal sense as eternal life is to be understood. And so the passages I referenced in Revelation are to be understood.
In that case I will side put my faith in the clear verses that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. Can you fault me for that ?.
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