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Yep, had to be the ark, complete with storage facilities to feed a million different species for almost a year. None of that crap has anything to do with the message of God given through fallible men--the authors of the Bible--and shown through fallible men like Abraham who lied about his wife being his sister, like Jacob stealing his brother's blessing, like Sampson who fell for the guile of a woman, like David who was an adulterer and a murderer, like Solomon, who for all his personal wisdom, overtaxed his nation so that it split into two countries at his death, like Jonah who was angry that God had him preach to the Ninevites because Jonah didn't want them to be saved---shall I go on??
The minute you start seeing infallibility in books or people you have lost sight of who God is. God uses fallible things to teach great lessons. Jesus Himself was once angry at the Pharisees because they doubted His greater power to forgive sin--so He said, "Rise up and walk!" (Matt 9:5-6). In other words, He did the lesser thing to show them what the greater thing really was. Those today who need arks or chalices or Bibles so holy they will walk on water are no different from those very Pharisees. They see salvation and blessing in the material, not in the spiritual. They have taken the broad and easy path, not the narrow, difficult path. They have no argument for God in the heart, because they are looking for God in a book, or an ark, or anything other than within themselves.
I'm a Christian. But it's certainly very easy to see why people are agnostic/atheistic when people who name Christ throw out this kind of baloney. Those people don't help the Christian cause, they hinder it. No one with a lick of sense would want to become a Christian if he thinks he has to let all reason depart from his head.
If Christians would spend as much time trying to live like Jesus and help those in need rather than waste time on an ark story--maybe some folks who aren't Christian would see something they wanted to emulate. But this myth has turned into a hole in the bottom of the spiritual ark--and it is sinking the spirit of everyone whether they are on the boat or not.
By the way, I've got a prayer handkerchief I can send you for just ten dollars plus postage. It was prayed over by a big name minister when he stood at the tomb of Jesus some years ago. It most certainly will make Jesus more real to you!
Bravo! Bravo! Outstanding post, Warden! I am confident Christ is pleased!
If you are looking to scriptures to make excuses you will find plenty .
If you are looking to scripture to find those whom reverenced God you will find plenty.
God knows your motivation , if you think He doesn't, you don't believe.
Believing in ,means you trust with out reservation.
I believe in God ,firstly because he has invested so much in my life starting with providing Jesus to take my place on the cross for my sin.(Self government)
When I repented my Self government, and seek God's government in my daily life, then and only then is His Lordship realized.
Having God's instruction in my life personally (as Jesus had promised) makes all the difference in the word.
If you are looking to nit pick over the Ark or any other issue ,finding fault does not validate your self before God you are still proving the rebellion in you is in charge.
"It's the attitude"
A man in love with a girl is not looking at every fault she has ,in fact is he can't see any.
A man in love with God is not making excuses, he's looking how to align himself with God best he can.
First law of "the ten" Jesus reenforced is to "Love God".
If loving God is not the first thing on the agenda, and academics are of more importance, whom are you trying to impress?
BTW the Ark was found by a Russian pilot back in the 50s or 60s,, Old news.
Heard about it when I was a kid back then.
Throughout history there are lots of stories that have been bent out of shape. To think the writers of the early Bible were any different from other men is, well, to make them "angels." That is baloney. They were men and were influenced as men are influenced.
Some people mistakenly believe God was whispering in the ear of the writers, but in fact, it is generally men who whisper sweet nothings in God's ear in hope that He will not notice how brutally we treat one another--and Christians throughout the ages can step to the forefront of that line.
How about reading the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, neither of them match with one another, and one of them claims to have fourteen generations between events, but lists only thirteen names. In addition it says one man is the son of another when he was actually the grandson--that is if the OT genealogy is correct.
I suspect there maaaaaayyyyy have been a Noah. All the other stuff was built around the flood stories and the fact that Noah was probably a good man. But the information recorded would have been centuries after the event. It's basically like asking you to get me a weather report for the week of the siege at Yorktown. You might get close if someone recorded in their diary that it rained one day, but the temps are going to be far, far away in another galaxy.
If you need an ark--or a chalice--to verify your belief in God, then your faith is indeed shallow. A historian goes with the best case scenario based on the available knowledge. Noah floating a boat to hold hundreds of thousands of species of animals is NOT a best case scenario--unless you are going to maintain that God shrank all the animals he had Noah put in the boat--and that makes about as much sense as anything else being concocted here.
People are out to make money on gullible, shallow Christians--and you are providing proof that it works.
1st, at 00:48 the video begins by showing a ship tossed in the air by waves and animals sliding back and forth inside the ark. Was the maker of the comic video there to see what actually occurred to the ship and inside the ship? No. The uneducated, when viewing the video actually think that what they see in the video is what actually occurred.
2. at 1:26 the idiot of the video makes the stupid statement that "The most obvious problem with the universal flood is the issue of the flood water itself. In order to cover the mountains as the Bible says, the earth would have to be covered by a spherical shell of water no less than 29,029 feet (showing Mt. Everest in the video).
Question for the idiot video maker: Was Mt. Everest even in existence in Noah's day? Maybe not. But if it was, it was only a couple thousand feet tall at best.
3. He then poopoos the idea of where the water came from by saying the ancient Hebrews though the earth was like a flat disk and above this disk was a solid sphere of water.
The Bible does not show they believed the earth to be a flat disk. The earth could have had rings of ice around it like Saturn and Jupiter. These rings could have collapsed causing what appeared to the viewer (Noah) that windows had opened up in the sky and water was pooring down upon them.
4. at 2:40 he talks about what the ancients believe that "The Earth is a giant snow-globe floating in water." Really? Is that what the Bible says? Really? I mean, REALLY?
5. He makes more stupid mistakes concerning the gathering of the animals. At 3:27 he shows an earth with separated continents and then shows a species of penguin living only in Antartica and shows Antartica as white showing it to be ice and snow covered. However, in Noah's day the entire earth was at least 72 degrees as proven by the fauna discovered in the North and South polar regions proving the entire earth was nice and cuddly warm back then. Also evidenced by the Mastadons still frozen today but found to still have the grasses in their mouths and stomachs they were eating back then. So the guy is an idiot.
He then makes the mistake of saying those animals had to get back to their individual continents once the flood was over. But the Bible says the continents began to move apart in Peleg's day. That was after the flood. Oops, the guy who made the video isn't too bright, now, is he?
At around 04:00 he shows the ark resting on top of a tree on a mountain. Are we really to take such a mocker seriously? Could a ship, around 500 feet long be able to land on and be held up by a tree? Honestly? But the uneducated, when seeing a comic like this just believe what they see as fact. A mind truly is a terrible thing to waste.
So how did the fungal species, nuts and seeds survive the flood? We have floods all the time. The flooded areas, after the water drains away reveal living trees, grasses and everything comes back to normal.
Today we feed cats and dogs (you know, carnivores) bagged, dry food and they do quite well on that diet. I'm sure Noah, being much smarter than the maker of this video had it all figured out. He fed all the animals, and obviously they survived on what he fed them because we have the offspring of those animals today who survived the historic world-wide flood.
I'll have to pick up where I left off as I have to get ready for work.
Eusebius, the point is that either the animals had to be shipped to the split up continents after the flood - in which case the division doesn't make much sense, or they had to be assembled at the right spots for when they began to split up. Either way it doesn't seem very feasible.
We had the dry food chat before. We mentioned that Koalas and pandas needed specific food and you suggested this Andean freeze -drying idea with protestation that the stuff could be kept for a year or more in some sealed or dry condition. All of which seems improbable, not least because you are going to need mountains high enough to have a permanent snowline or freeze - drying won't work and you can't feed a couple of species that would have to survive.
So apart from the extra work of a years' supply of freeze-dried eucalyptus (you will presumably get over that by proposing Noah having unlimited resources - so he's a billionaire slavemaster as well as shipwright, metallurgist, vet, biologist and agriculturalist) you are stuck with mountains high enough that you have got to have a lot of water to have a global flood - and explain where it went.
If you argue that there needed only to be one nearby for the freeze -drying and all the others were just what was needed to make you theory work, you are approaching 'God arranged it all' and, once you do that, you don't need the ark, the flood or indeed Noah.
The Bible does indeed indicate a flat disk with a dome over it - no matter what you want to believe. The idea of a sort of cloud canopy or ring theory to produce the water is one of those i believe even creationsm now admits is best avoided.
And all this stuff is pure speculation on your part, like the mini mount Everest that you have popping up to the present height for no reason other than that you need this to make your beliefs work.
I agree that the ark resting on a tree is wrong and a penguin doesn't have to live in an snow -covered environment. A couple of minor points and it doesn't alter the fact of an immense task of assembling all the creatures needed to survive, even if two of each is even enough without some god -magic.
You can save the attempt to limit the numbers by just having some basid kind from which all the others are super -evolved. The Bible mentions specific species and the flood levels cover hundreds of millions of species which all need to be on the ark. If you say no and just have a few 'kinds' which produce a whole lot of new species (or even the same species again), you have not only resorted to the magic wand but re-written the Bible.
You airy 'everything will produce the same stuff after a year of being under mud' is a bit over- sanguine. fungus is produced by airborne spores in the ground had lost its fungus through being under sea for a year. Airborne spores will not float for ever. They will fall into the water and cease to be. I know that 'floating vegetation mats' are proposed to carry anything too small for Noah to have bothered with, but that is rather leaving it to chance. The Bible says two of each creature. That means anything that you want to be sure lives through the flood, and you can't risk losing any, or you have compromised the terms of the Bible.
Now off you go and think about it and remember, it doesn't matter that you deny it and invent all sorts of tall stories to try to make the unworkable work, what matters is that people reading it will find your efforts to make a topheavy myth stand up with invented explanations without a shred of support quite unconvincing.
1st, at 00:48 the video begins by showing a ship tossed in the air by waves and animals sliding back and forth inside the ark. Was the maker of the comic video there to see what actually occurred to the ship and inside the ship? No. The uneducated, when viewing the video actually think that what they see in the video is what actually occurred.
2. at 1:26 the idiot of the video makes the stupid statement that "The most obvious problem with the universal flood is the issue of the flood water itself. In order to cover the mountains as the Bible says, the earth would have to be covered by a spherical shell of water no less than 29,029 feet (showing Mt. Everest in the video).
Question for the idiot video maker: Was Mt. Everest even in existence in Noah's day? Maybe not. But if it was, it was only a couple thousand feet tall at best.
3. He then poopoos the idea of where the water came from by saying the ancient Hebrews though the earth was like a flat disk and above this disk was a solid sphere of water.
The Bible does not show they believed the earth to be a flat disk. The earth could have had rings of ice around it like Saturn and Jupiter. These rings could have collapsed causing what appeared to the viewer (Noah) that windows had opened up in the sky and water was pooring down upon them.
4. at 2:40 he talks about what the ancients believe that "The Earth is a giant snow-globe floating in water." Really? Is that what the Bible says? Really? I mean, REALLY?
5. He makes more stupid mistakes concerning the gathering of the animals. At 3:27 he shows an earth with separated continents and then shows a species of penguin living only in Antartica and shows Antartica as white showing it to be ice and snow covered. However, in Noah's day the entire earth was at least 72 degrees as proven by the fauna discovered in the North and South polar regions proving the entire earth was nice and cuddly warm back then. Also evidenced by the Mastadons still frozen today but found to still have the grasses in their mouths and stomachs they were eating back then. So the guy is an idiot.
He then makes the mistake of saying those animals had to get back to their individual continents once the flood was over. But the Bible says the continents began to move apart in Peleg's day. That was after the flood. Oops, the guy who made the video isn't too bright, now, is he?
At around 04:00 he shows the ark resting on top of a tree on a mountain. Are we really to take such a mocker seriously? Could a ship, around 500 feet long be able to land on and be held up by a tree? Honestly? But the uneducated, when seeing a comic like this just believe what they see as fact. A mind truly is a terrible thing to waste.
So how did the fungal species, nuts and seeds survive the flood? We have floods all the time. The flooded areas, after the water drains away reveal living trees, grasses and everything comes back to normal.
Today we feed cats and dogs (you know, carnivores) bagged, dry food and they do quite well on that diet. I'm sure Noah, being much smarter than the maker of this video had it all figured out. He fed all the animals, and obviously they survived on what he fed them because we have the offspring of those animals today who survived the historic world-wide flood.
I'll have to pick up where I left off as I have to get ready for work.
No, he was mocking what foolish Christians attempt to perpetuate. There is no way enough food of different types could have been held on the ark for nearly a year to feed every animal---if you believe that account. But then you must believe the forty day account. Yup, two accounts of the flood, written by two different authors at different times. Incidentally if you believe seeds and spores survived in or under the water then you do not believe the Bible literally as God says, in the story, that EVERYTHING would be destroyed.
Either 40 days or one year:
Genesis 8:4 says that the Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat (5 km above sea level) on the seventeenth day of the seventh month. Verse 8:5 says that in the tenth month the tops of the mountains were seen. Finally, on the fist month of the new year (8:13a) the waters were dried up on the land.
Genesis 8:6 says that at the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the Ark and (8:8-12) sent forth a dove to tell that the land was dry.
The difference arises from the differences in two different accounts of the same story, that have been intertwined to the point that can seem to be just the one account, but for the internal contradictions. The verses attributed to the Priestly author are: Genesis 6:9-22, 7:6, 7:8-9, 7:11, 7:13-16a, 7:18-21, 7:24, 8:1-2a, 8:3b-5, 8:7, 8:13a, 8:14-19, 9:1-17. The verses attributed to the Yahwist are: Genesis 6:5-8, 7:1-5, 7:7, 7:10, 7:12, 7:16b-17, 7:22-23, 8:2b-3a, 8:6, 8:8-12, 8:13b, 8:20-22.
The purpose of this tall tale was NOT about an ark with every living creature on it. It was instead to explain a spiritual purpose of a natural phenomena -- a rainbow--and put a message of hope and promise in it. Stick with that tale and you have one that can encourage people with the spiritual meaning of life--of finding the work of God in the events of life.
P.S. I have a calling from God--and it is not to the lost--it is to the "saved." And the message God gave me is to tell Christians to stop acting and believing as fools, to treat people of every race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation as if they are floating in the same ark as everyone else---with opportunity for grace and blessing as His creation. The promise of a future is for everyone who can see beyond the small confines of the ark (this world), to the greater blessings of floating on an ocean of love.
The Bible does indeed indicate a flat disk with a dome over it - no matter what you want to believe. The idea of a sort of cloud canopy or ring theory to produce the water is one of those i believe even creationsm now admits is best avoided.
Yes, and medieval Christianity persecuted people who didn't believe the earth was flat or that the sun rotated around the earth.
Quote:
"The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved."
-Psalms 104:5
This bible verse shackled the minds of men for thousands of years, and held back the advance of science. It was this verse that was used as evidence against Galileo, who argued for the theory of Copernicus, that the earth is not immovable, but rotates around the sun. It was for teaching this that he was called to Rome in 1633, and tried for the crime of heresy. The aged Galileo, in his 70's, was taken down into the dungeons of the church and shown the instruments of torture that were going to be used on him if he did not recant. Fearing the torture, and fearing that he might share the fate of Giordano Bruno, whom the church burned at the stake a generation earlier for the same crime, Galileo recanted the truth. He was confined to his home under house arrest, neither allowed to leave or to receive visitors, for the last seven years of his life.
You can save the attempt to limit the numbers by just having some basic kind from which all the others are super -evolved. The Bible mentions specific species and the flood levels cover hundreds of millions of species which all need to be on the ark. If you say no and just have a few 'kinds' which produce a whole lot of new species (or even the same species again), you have not only resorted to the magic wand but re-written the Bible.
Yep, had to be the ark, complete with storage facilities to feed a million different species for almost a year. None of that crap has anything to do with the message of God given through fallible men--the authors of the Bible--and shown through fallible men like Abraham who lied about his wife being his sister, like Jacob stealing his brother's blessing, like Sampson who fell for the guile of a woman, like David who was an adulterer and a murderer, like Solomon, who for all his personal wisdom, overtaxed his nation so that it split into two countries at his death, like Jonah who was angry that God had him preach to the Ninevites because Jonah didn't want them to be saved---shall I go on??
The minute you start seeing infallibility in books or people you have lost sight of who God is. God uses fallible things to teach great lessons. Jesus Himself was once angry at the Pharisees because they doubted His greater power to forgive sin--so He said, "Rise up and walk!" (Matt 9:5-6). In other words, He did the lesser thing to show them what the greater thing really was. Those today who need arks or chalices or Bibles so holy they will walk on water are no different from those very Pharisees. They see salvation and blessing in the material, not in the spiritual. They have taken the broad and easy path, not the narrow, difficult path. They have no argument for God in the heart, because they are looking for God in a book, or an ark, or anything other than within themselves.
I'm a Christian. But it's certainly very easy to see why people are agnostic/atheistic when people who name Christ throw out this kind of baloney. Those people don't help the Christian cause, they hinder it. No one with a lick of sense would want to become a Christian if he thinks he has to let all reason depart from his head.
If Christians would spend as much time trying to live like Jesus and help those in need rather than waste time on an ark story--maybe some folks who aren't Christian would see something they wanted to emulate. But this myth has turned into a hole in the bottom of the spiritual ark--and it is sinking the spirit of everyone whether they are on the boat or not.
By the way, I've got a prayer handkerchief I can send you for just ten dollars plus postage. It was prayed over by a big name minister when he stood at the tomb of Jesus some years ago. It most certainly will make Jesus more real to you!
Hey guy, lighten up, eh? I'm not sure where you get the 'infallibility' thing from. Noah was definitely NOT infallible, although he WAS one of the Bible characters.
I know that you don't know me from Noah...I mean Adam, but try to accept the fact that God is grinding me exactly as hard as He deems necessary, and I'm not looking for a broad, easy path. Please be careful not to categorize people without any knowledge of them.
I'm going to continue to follow Jesus, and in being "Christ-like", I wish to believe the same things that Jesus does, and that includes knowing that the Flood story was not a myth, but actual fact. After watching the complete video, I'm at a loss as to where any of the investigators did anything that dishonored God. In fact, it is the actions of others, when they find out that the Bible stories are true, that are un-Christ-like. As far as what other people think about it, and how belittling they may think it is, and how it doesn't fit into their paradigm of what they believe, that's none of my concern. Believing the 'facts' in the Bible, just as Jesus did is part of being 'like Jesus'. Some people don't emulate Him, and they won't emulate me for the same reasons.
Yes. It does seem ironic that we have evolution, including transitional forms in hours at the most, and how so many of them got trapped as the rather rare fossil examples above the (supposed) flood levels I have no idea. But evolution is ok, if it is a magical event done by God to make Genesis work and, so long as it is nothing to do with Darwin's theory.
You will be aware that the creation museum (s?) argue for a few 'barymas' or 'kinds' (freely interpreting 7 14) which would cut down the numbers needed to cram on the Ark, especially if you need the dinos. as well (the tracks in the 'flood levels' means that they had to be on the ark - only to go extinct before anyone could do much more than have a few artworks that one might equally take for mythical monsters) as well as the food for all the critters and plants, as you have not only got the month long flood but the receding waters - i recon about a year altogether and then at least a year before anything grows, despite our pal's easy assurances that everything would have survived a year -long submersion under the sea and would be producing crops and fruit before the stored freeze -dried eucalyptus and bamboo leaves had given out.
No, he was mocking what foolish Christians attempt to perpetuate. There is no way enough food of different types could have been held on the ark for nearly a year to feed every animal---if you believe that account. But then you must believe the forty day account. Yup, two accounts of the flood, written by two different authors at different times. Incidentally if you believe seeds and spores survived in or under the water then you do not believe the Bible literally as God says, in the story, that EVERYTHING would be destroyed.
Either 40 days or one year:
Genesis 8:4 says that the Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat (5 km above sea level) on the seventeenth day of the seventh month. Verse 8:5 says that in the tenth month the tops of the mountains were seen. Finally, on the fist month of the new year (8:13a) the waters were dried up on the land.
Genesis 8:6 says that at the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the Ark and (8:8-12) sent forth a dove to tell that the land was dry.
Of course there was PLENTY of food for all the animals for a year. It was a HUGE ship, remember, with three levels. It wasn't the tiny boat as portrayed in the comic video.
It is quite obvious you don't know what you are talking about as to the above two texts.
It was 40 days after the mountains began to appear.
The ark rested on the mountain July 27th, most likely by dropping anchor.
On September 1st the heads of the mountains appeared.
40 days later, at the end of 40 days he let out the raven. After that, he sent out the dove.
The dove returned. He waited 7 more days and let the dove out again. Then he let out the dove again and it returned with an olive leaf (proving that the trees were not all destroyed by the flood).
Then he waited another 7 days and let the dove out again.
Quote:
The purpose of this tall tale was NOT about an ark with every living creature on it. It was instead to explain a spiritual purpose of a natural phenomena -- a rainbow--and put a message of hope and promise in it. Stick with that tale and you have one that can encourage people with the spiritual meaning of life--of finding the work of God in the events of life.
Jesus nor Paul nor Jude or any of the others in the Bible thought it was a tale.
Quote:
P.S. I have a calling from God--and it is not to the lost--it is to the "saved." And the message God gave me is to tell Christians to stop acting and believing as fools, to treat people of every race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation as if they are floating in the same ark as everyone else---with opportunity for grace and blessing as His creation. The promise of a future is for everyone who can see beyond the small confines of the ark (this world), to the greater blessings of floating on an ocean of love.
I think you should get your story straight first and learn a little more, actually a lot more about the bible before you begin to be the guide of others.
Yes. It does seem ironic that we have evolution, including transitional forms in hours at the most, and how so many of them got trapped as the rather rare fossil examples above the (supposed) flood levels I have no idea. But evolution is ok, if it is a magical event done by God to make Genesis work and, so long as it is nothing to do with Darwin's theory.
You will be aware that the creation museum (s?) argue for a few 'barymas' or 'kinds' (freely interpreting 7 14) which would cut down the numbers needed to cram on the Ark, especially if you need the dinos. as well (the tracks in the 'flood levels' means that they had to be on the ark - only to go extinct before anyone could do much more than have a few artworks that one might equally take for mythical monsters) as well as the food for all the critters and plants, as you have not only got the month long flood but the receding waters - i recon about a year altogether and then at least a year before anything grows, despite our pal's easy assurances that everything would have survived a year -long submersion under the sea and would be producing crops and fruit before the stored freeze -dried eucalyptus and bamboo leaves had given out.
From Albert Barne's Notes on the bible he wrote:
The olive leaf plucked off was a sign of returning safety to the land. It is said by Theophrastus (Hist. Plant. 4, 7) and Pliny (H. N. 13, 50) that the olive strikes leaves even under water.
Eusebius 1,185 to AREQUIPA's 2
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, complete with storage facilities to feed a million different species for almost a year. None of that crap has anything to do with the message of God given through fallible men--the authors of the Bible--and shown through fallible men like Abraham who lied about his wife being his sister, like Jacob stealing his brother's blessing, like Sampson who fell for the guile of a woman, like David who was an adulterer and a murderer, like Solomon, who for all his personal wisdom, overtaxed his nation so that it split into two countries at his death, like Jonah who was angry that God had him preach to the Ninevites because Jonah didn't want them to be saved---shall I go on??
It does seem ironic that we have evolution, including transitional forms in hours at the most, and how so many of them got trapped as the rather rare fossil examples above the (supposed) flood levels I have no idea. But evolution is ok, if it is a magical event done by God to make Genesis work and, so long as it is nothing to do with Darwin's theory.