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So glad you mentioned that, Mike because you touch on a very important point: the gradual deification of Jesus starting with no Deity statements at all in Mark; semi-deification in Matthew; a little more in Luke; and full Deification in John. Again I point out out that it is no accident that Jesus gradually evolved from a Jewish rabbi with certain healing powers and no claims of Deity in Mark, the first gospel, to "the Word was God" and full Deification in John, the last gospel.
I did not say there was any gradual deification of Christ, so do not imply that I did.
It is stated in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be God.
In Philippians 2 it is stated that Jesus is God. Philippians was written around 61-62 AD. That is well before the gospel of John was written and perhaps before the gospel of Mark was written.
Do you understand what I just said? Before the gospel accounts were probably written Jesus is said to be God in the Book of Philippians.
Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God.
As for Mark 10:17-19, (and I have gone over this in the past) the man had asked Jesus on the basis of the Law what he had to do to inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus answered him on that basis. Jesus was not saying that the man could earn salvation by keeping the Law. No one can. Furthermore, inheriting the kingdom is not the same as being in the kingdom. Inheriting the kingdom has to do with ownership in the Kingdom. With having blessings and rewards in the kingdom. Every believer will be in the kingdom, but not every believer will have the same blessings in the kingdom.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-07-2014 at 08:25 PM..
I did not say there was any gradual deification of Christ, so do not imply that I did.
It is stated in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be God.
In Philippians 2 it is stated that Jesus is God. Philippians was written around 61-62 AD. That is well before the gospel of John was written and perhaps before the gospel of Mark was written.
Do you understand what I just said? Before the gospel accounts were probably written Jesus is said to be God in the Book of Philippians.
Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God.
I know you didn't say that. I only said you touched on it, from my perspective, of course. From yours, maybe not. And what does Philippians have to do with any of this? I am talking only about the gospel accounts of how Jesus portrayed Himself and how each successive writer jimmied the narrative to make Jesus look more Godlike. Like I said, it's as clear as day this is what's going on.
I know you didn't say that. I only said you touched on it, from my perspective, of course. From yours, maybe not. And what does Philippians have to do with any of this? I am talking only about the gospel accounts of how Jesus portrayed Himself and how each successive writer jimmied the narrative to make Jesus look more Godlike. Like I said, it's as clear as day this is what's going on.
You have just been told that Jesus is called God in Philippians 2 which was written before the gospel accounts, and so the teaching of Jesus' deity was not a gradual development.
What Philippians has to do with it is that it establishes that Jesus was recognized as God by the writers of the New Testament before any of the gospel accounts were written.
Trust me, you have no idea what's going on.
I'll not bother with any further replies to you, as it would be pointless.
SBFATG doesn't appear until Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even Ephesians is generally believed to be a pseudepigraphical epistle (written by someone else who signed it "Paul") So SBFATG might not even have originated with Paul but perhaps he later picked it up because it sounded "good".
Prior to Ephesians we have NOTHING in the synoptic gospels to indicate SBFATG. It is not until John in roughly 95 AD that SBFATG emerges as a theology. So why did the earliest authors see no need to mention SBFATG if it is absolutely fundamental to salvation? Let's look at some of Jesus' own teachings on how to attain salvation:
Forgive others and God will forgive you, according to Jesus. No mention of SBFATG.
Again, Jesus stresses actions, not SBFATG, to inherit eternal life.
Nowhere in the Beatitudes does Jesus make believing in Him a prerequisite to obtaining mercy and entering heaven. In fact, the ONLY verse in the three synoptic gospels that hints at SBFATG is Mark 16:16, but this was added to Mark's gospel hundreds of years afterward by someone else. It is not found in the earliest copies of Mark's gospel.
What is the problem with SBFATG?
Plenty. In a nutshell, a serial child rapist could spend his life doing the most heinous deeds and just before he dies he could profess belief in Jesus and gain admission directly to God's presence. By simply saying two words, "I believe" all his past depravity is completely wiped clean. By contrast a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her life caring for the poor and toward the end of her life expressed doubt in Jesus, would immediately be sent to hell to burn forever in its fires. Anybody see a problem with this theology?
SBFATG completely negates the need for good works, a foundation of Jesus' teachings in the synoptics. Again the question begs, "If SBFATG were truthful, why do Matthew, Mark and Luke completely skip over it? Why does it not appear until John's gospel when the Christian church was getting into full swing. Perhaps an answer can be found in the fact that church leaders, knowing humans are lazy by nature, hit upon the idea that it was easier to preach a gospel of faith alone rather than works, knowing that potential converts would be more attracted to a religion that taught "all you have to do to go to heaven is believe in Jesus, nothing else, and you will be saved. Thus, John's gospel came into being as a tool of propaganda rather than as a genuine expression of Jesus' requirements for salvation.
I must confess that if I were someone looking for a new religion such a theology as just believing in someone and not having to do anything else would draw me like bees to honey.
Dear thrill,
The gospel of Grace, the antithesis of the gospel of the Kingdom, is only heresy with respect to the testimony of Yeshua, whose followers would be the true church, Mt Zion. The gospel of Grace, "faith alone", is the base teaching of the "Christian" church, which would be the church of Babel, or in other words, the church of confusion, and therefore not heresy. Paul is all things to all men, so you can read whatever you want into what he preaches. His followers have 41,000 denominations. He is the father of confusion. He is the leaven (hypocrisy) in the bread, which is supposed be eaten unleavened.
As far as your Mother Theresa story, and your child rapist theory, on that you are not quite on the mark. Mother Theresa, while she did good deeds, also had the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4). She will not be in the 1st resurrection, but in the 2nd, after the 1000 years, she will be judged according to her deeds (Rev 20:13) As for the child molester, he could repent, but the odds are he isn't going to. Repenting is more than saying a prayer by rote (Psalms 51:1). In any case, everyone, no matter what, are judged according to their deeds at the judgment after the 1000 year reign.(Rev 20:13)
As for what Salvation is, Paul apparently didn't have a clue, even though he quoted Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13. Joel 2:32 is about the "survivors" of the Great Tribulation during the period of the awesome "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31) It is the same salvation listed in Mt 24:13, which occurs in the tribulation. No one would have been "saved", or survived if "those days had not been cut short" (Mt 24:22) As for how bad the "Day of the Lord" is when the nations surround Jerusalem, look to Ze 14:12," Now this is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; Their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth." This is the same description given by the survivors of Hiroshema.
If a person is a slave - they have a miserable existence - John Newton was owned by a slave!!
From the lowest speck of a person came the greatest song ever written!
Trying to figure out your meaning here, John Newton was the captain of a slave ship until he saw the light.
As for Mark 10:17-19, (and I have gone over this in the past) the man had asked Jesus on the basis of the Law what he had to do to inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus answered him on that basis. Jesus was not saying that the man could earn salvation by keeping the Law. No one can. Furthermore, inheriting the kingdom is not the same as being in the kingdom. Inheriting the kingdom has to do with ownership in the Kingdom. With having blessings and rewards in the kingdom. Every believer will be in the kingdom, but not every believer will have the same blessings in the kingdom.
You have just been told that Jesus is called God in Philippians 2 which was written before the gospel accounts, and so the teaching of Jesus' deity was not a gradual development.
What Philippians has to do with it is that it establishes that Jesus was recognized as God by the writers of the New Testament before any of the gospel accounts were written.
Trust me, you have no idea what's going on.
I'll not bother with any further replies to you, as it would be pointless.
You insist on mixing apples with oranges. It is pointless to drag the epistles into this because salvation by faith alone is a separate doctrine first established in Ephesians by [purportedly] Paul, who had his own gospel (not from Jesus) to spread.
The discussion here has focused on the writers of the gospels gradually turning Jesus into a Deity. That is plainly evident from my post #28 which you chose to completely ignore probably because you have no defense.
HEB 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The things hoped for from God can be summed up as Eternal Life. The main ingredients thereof are faith, hope and love and the greatest of these is love.
If there is no faith then there is no substance of salvation because one must believe that He is and that He rewards [with Eternal Life] those who diligently seek Him. Seek Him, ask for good things, and knock on Heavens door Jesus said and you will find abundant Life Eternal, receive your answers to life's problems, and find doors opened that you never knew existed. And do so daily!
It is your Heavenly Fathers good pleasure to give you the Kingdom freely [not work for] by faith that reveals the substance of Heavens treasures.
Trying to figure out your meaning here, John Newton was the captain of a slave ship until he saw the light.
Read his life story. ok!
Finally at his own request he was exchanged into service on a slave ship, which took him to the coast of Sierra Leone. He then became the servant of a slave trader and was brutally abused. Early in 1748 he was rescued by a sea captain who had known John's father. John Newton ultimately became captain of his own ship, one which plied the slave trade.
Dear thrill,
As far as your Mother Theresa story, and your child rapist theory, on that you are not quite on the mark. Mother Theresa, while she did good deeds, also had the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4). She will not be in the 1st resurrection, but in the 2nd, after the 1000 years, she will be judged according to her deeds (Rev 20:13) As for the child molester, he could repent, but the odds are he isn't going to.
Shirō Ishii is an interesting, if sickening read:
Quote:
Shirō Ishii June 25, 1892 – October 9, 1959) was a Japanese microbiologist and the lieutenant general of Unit 731, a biological warfare unit of the Imperial Japanese Army involved in forced and frequently lethal human experimentation during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Some of the numerous atrocities committed by the commander Shiro Ishii and others under his command in Unit 731 include: vivisection of living people (including pregnant women who were impregnated by the doctors), prisoners had limbs amputated and reattached to other parts of their body, some prisoners had parts of their bodies frozen and thawed to study the resulting untreated gangrene. Humans were also used as living test cases for grenades and flame throwers. Prisoners were injected with strains of diseases, disguised as vaccinations, to study their effects. To study the effects of untreated venereal diseases, male and female prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis and gonorrhea via rape, then studied.
One account has Ishii tying several hundred Chinese men, women and children POW's to stakes in a field and then blowing bombs off near them to give them minor to serious wounds so the wounds could turn gangrenous, whereupon he would study the effects of the gangrene on their living bodies as they slowly poisoned to death. Nice decent guy.
Ishii converted to Christianity on his deathbed before dying of throat cancer at the age of 67. He got a get-into-heaven-free pass courtesy of Paul's salvation by grace through faith alone heresy.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 02-07-2014 at 10:32 PM..
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