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I was raised by newly converted Christian parents and while I did and do still consider myself a Christian, for many years it's been a great struggle to reconcile my doubts and reservations with my faith. I've come to a point, and it's not new, where I feel I've at a cross-roads...I decided to put into words what the main issues with Christianity I had were - they seemed to differ to some other peoples, although some of the issues were the same. Either way...just a disclaimer, if you're easily prone to doubts and do not wish to continue reading please do not...Anyway I'm looking for perspectives, Christian or not, and possible answers to some of my queries/problems. I don't WANT to lose my faith, but I feel that I can longer except traditional Christianity.
Anyway here they are...
MY ISSUES WITH CHRISTIANITY
God knew what Adam and Eve would do yet acted as if it was an unexpected transgression. He also designed them to do what they would do, their nature. the same with Satan. If they had a rebellious nature, it was only because God made them that way. Sure he gave them free will, but it’s like saying, I’m going to let the rabbit out into my veggie patch but will get angry that he will eat my lettuce, full well knowing that rabbits eat lettuce.
Primitive/incorrect cosmology in Old and New Testament, e.g. stars in between firmament and dome of sky, same with moon and sun, being able to fall to earth, suggestive of flat earth and geocentric universe. No concept that there were other planets and stars.
Human-like nature of God, especially with his propensity to anger, insecurity, jealousy etc…Shouldn’t a truly all powerful, omniscient, benevolent being be above that?
The flood…derivative of the epic of Gilgamesh…if God really plans to draw us back to him why do we keep failing? Just the sheer implausibility of the flood and the lack of any real evidence for a worldwide flood where everyone but Noah drowned. No evidence that all humans are descended from Noah.
The idea that God had to sacrifice his Son - who was also Himself - in order to appease ourselves…if he was all powerful why was this sacrifice required?
Jesus seemed to predict his return in the 1st century, saying he would come before the generation would not pass away, telling his DISCIPLINES how he would return, that they would not taste death. The apostles, his followers and Paul seemed to believe in an early return, not 2000+ years into the future.
The idea of eternal torment - although I believe it is hardly conclusively taught in the Bible, and indeed Jesus probably did not teach it - is heinous and makes a mockery out of any idea of truly loving God or worshipping God out of love, instead out of fear and threats.
The Bible. Christians say that we have to read the Bible and that is how God talks to us. What about the masses throughout history who have been illiterate, who have relied on the clergy, often corrupt and immoral, or preachers, to tell them what they need to hear? These messages were often also designed to keep them in check. Did God intend that only the literate would fully appreciate Him? And was it not humans that chose the modern canon of the Bible? How sure are we that they were divinely inspired when putting together these books? And there are countless disagreements over the meaning/right way to interpret certain passages in the Bible. People mostly believe what their church teachers, even those who claim to rely on ‘scripture alone.’
A ‘personal relationship’ with God is often based on human emotions which people believe ardently are ‘messages’ from God or God speaking to them. They project their own ideas about God mixed in with their own interpretation of the character of God in the Bible.
If God truly wishes to ‘draw us all to him’ what’s the deal with him having the ‘elect’ and sending 90% of humanity to death or hell? Jesus himself says the road to life is narrow and few find it.
There are simply too many issues with Christianity as presented in the orthodox churches. I feel I will either have to reject it outright, or try to come up with a major compromise/something new where I can preserve my faith.
I also resent the idea that people CHOOSE not to believe, as if it was that easy. Also some Christians are so desperate to hold onto their faith - myself included, because of fear and a sense of loss: the fear of death, of hell, of alienation from family and friends, of a loss of purpose, the disappointment that they will not indeed live forever.
What frustrates me is that some - even those close to me - feel I am deliberately attacking Christianity when it is precisely because I’ve forced myself to believe/reconcile these things in my mind for so long that these doubts have simmered, repressed, until recently. I feel by getting them out into the open can I really work through them and have a true and genuine faith, if that is to be.
Maybe it is the Devil who is trying to snatch me away…or maybe I’m simply not one of the ‘elect’ who cannot be wholeheartedly convinced of things that are so implausible to me. After all, it is God in his sovereignty, not the devil, who chooses who will find him and enter the kingdom and heaven and who will not.
The idea that God had to sacrifice his Son - who was also Himself - in order to appease ourselves…if he was all powerful why was this sacrifice required?
Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)
The first shedding of blood occurred when God made clothing for Adam & Eve.
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No concept that there were other planets and stars.
Genesis 1:16 He made the stars also
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The flood…derivative of the epic of Gilgamesh…if God really plans to draw us back to him why do we keep failing? Just the sheer implausibility of the flood and the lack of any real evidence for a worldwide flood where everyone but Noah drowned. No evidence that all humans are descended from Noah.
Jesus said plainly: For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,and did not know until the flood came and took them all away. (Matthew 24:38 & 39)
You need to understand and believe what God says is true; and quit using Human Reasoning.
I feel bad you are so confused - quit looking at man - Turn to your creator!
Ye shall seek Me & find Me - When you search for Me with ALL of your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)
All I can do is pray for you! & point you in the right direction.
I was raised by newly converted Christian parents and while I did and do still consider myself a Christian, for many years it's been a great struggle to reconcile my doubts and reservations with my faith. I've come to a point, and it's not new, where I feel I've at a cross-roads...I decided to put into words what the main issues with Christianity I had were - they seemed to differ to some other peoples, although some of the issues were the same. Either way...just a disclaimer, if you're easily prone to doubts and do not wish to continue reading please do not...Anyway I'm looking for perspectives, Christian or not, and possible answers to some of my queries/problems. I don't WANT to lose my faith, but I feel that I can longer except traditional Christianity.
Anyway here they are...
MY ISSUES WITH CHRISTIANITY
God knew what Adam and Eve would do yet acted as if it was an unexpected transgression. He also designed them to do what they would do, their nature. the same with Satan. If they had a rebellious nature, it was only because God made them that way. Sure he gave them free will, but it’s like saying, I’m going to let the rabbit out into my veggie patch but will get angry that he will eat my lettuce, full well knowing that rabbits eat lettuce..
Brother, you have been told wrongly, learned incorrectly or assume falsely on the first point.
Many Christians believe like you do so don't fret... certainly nearly all atheists I've chatted with do too.
ASSUMING that God knew that Adam and Eve would sin probably comes from the scriptures that tell us that God is All-knowing (Omnicient). This must be understood in a limited sense, the same as Omnipresent and also Omnipotent. Many passages show that God clearly comes to know certain acts of free and sovereign wills, and He does not plan or try to know from all eternity past the infinite details regarding beings who are here now and others that will be brought into existence in all eternity to come. In other words, just because God operates outside of time and can see into the future DOES NOT MEAN HE DOES SO ALL THE TIME.
He created us to interact with Him and fellowship with Him. Why would God bother to look into the future and see every conversation and every word that one day you would speak to Him? What would the point be??
I example I've used in the past is this: you have the ability to walk to work (assuming you live in the same town as your job.) It might take you a long time to do so but you could still do it. Do you? Assuming you don't live but 5/6 blocks from work, you choose to drive. You could walk but you choose to drive.
God's nature is the same as yours... "let us make man in our image..." He can certainly choose whether or not to look into the future if He wants to. I personally believe He's got more to do than look 17 years into the future to see if you'll wear a red shirt or a green shirt on Christmas in 2031! Do you see how ridiculous that would be?
Again, you assume falsely. God DID NOT DESIGN Adam and Eve or Satan to do what they did. They were created perfect. The problem came into existence when He gave them total and permanent freedom of choice in every area and aspect of their lives. This is a boundary God will never cross or restrict. When Satan (and later man) choose to disobey God sin was born. It had the possibility to exist but had to be brought out under certain conditions. Here's an example of this: consider the leaves on the trees in autumn. Say this is year one of creation and it's the very first fall ever. Never before have the leaves "rustled" in the trees, but conditions are becoming favorable for them to do so. It takes a certain dryness (process of losing moisture) within the leaves and another influence to cause the leaves to rustle in the trees... in this case a breeze or wind. The leaves had the potential to rustle but did not do so until conditions were available. Satan's and man's sin is exactly the same. God did not create them to sin but with free will and freedom of choice the conditions became available.
Most importantly, God DID NOT MAKE EITHER SATAN OR MAN WITH A REBELLIOUS NATURE. It's vital that you relearn this! Again, they were created perfect. Neither were we, descendants all of Adam and Eve, CRTEATED with a rebellious nature. Adam and Eve passed down the TENDANCY TO SIN to us all but that is it.
When Satan (and later man) sinned it changed EVERYTHING!!
While it's true God planned man's salvation before He created man I don't believe He looked into the corridors of time and saw that man would sin. He planned salvation in the hopes it would not be necessary.
Interesting point...that God sort of restricted his omniscence, somehow, kind of like how Jesus was restricted. C.S. Lewis suggested that Jesus made prophecies that didn't come true because it was his human side making them.
Yes but then what does 'perfect' mean? Does not perfect mean that like Christ we cannot sin? Or else then we are fallible...If we were so perfect why did he fall into temptation and were seduced by well...whatever you call it, curiosity, pride.etc.
Interesting point...that God sort of restricted his omniscence, somehow, kind of like how Jesus was restricted. C.S. Lewis suggested that Jesus made prophecies that didn't come true because it was his human side making them.
Yes but then what does 'perfect' mean? Does not perfect mean that like Christ we cannot sin? Or else then we are fallible...If we were so perfect why did he fall into temptation and were seduced by well...whatever you call it, curiosity, pride.etc.
As with Jesus, God withdrew the conscience presence of Himself to see what Adam would do after God gave him His command that demanded a choice to be made. Then Adam was abandoned by God, as was Jesus in the wilderness, to reveal what was in his heart. He failed. "O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandment[s]! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea" Isaiah 48:18 (KJV)
The fact that God had to abandoned Adam, to prove him, would indicate to me that God willingly placed Himself in time that He could temporally recuse Himself because of prior knowledge of Adam's decision. Because of the rules of battle with Satan, He could not influence Adam's decision. That said, God did plan for his failure.
See Adam failed because God was sovereign and His Word were unity to Him , where as Jesus was also given free will and turned it down for a lead in the spirit , both Adam and Jesus were created by God and design to be sovereign of heaven ......................Noah ark was not the whole earth but the whole known earth were as a local area around the Black sea to the Caspian Sea, to the Mediterranean Sea to the Red Sea were the people of this area were lost .............................. Jesus did return during the time of the apostles were alive were they were baptized by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost which proved Jesus Words `Send the promise of the Spirit to be with you `... as every person who receive this promise of the Baptism of Holy Spirit will have a witness of the truth of the cross of Christ and a testimony of Jesus Christ ................................ Jesus died on a cross because he was designed to be a Saviour for all men , as all men and women are condemned to perish because they were born in sin and all have sinned in life ...... So the justice of God is that the sin of the devil which all men in the world follow was responsible for killing Jesus and innocent man created a son of God ...................... So to be saved one must repent of sin and reject the devil , and love God and follow Him and His commands , so then and only then justice that men will perish will be overturned and men through this righteousness of Lord Jesus that men can have eternal life ............................ See hell was created for the devil and his hoards , so if man and women ignore God and then by default will follow the devil and his authority ..................................... See Greater Critics of God and His salvation through His son Lord Jesus tend to be a Critic of the very things which God gave us to be saved , and if these critics fail to forsake these denials of truth and turn away from criticizing God then they can not be saved and will be lost to God ............People need to find a good church were the gospel is preached and there is evidence of Holy Spirit , were the people in these churches know Jesus and will have the keys to salvation to be a child of God .....
Hey Postman - just going to hit on some of your issues here and there - in no particular order.
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Originally Posted by The Postman
Human-like nature of God, especially with his propensity to anger, insecurity, jealousy etc…Shouldn’t a truly all powerful, omniscient, benevolent being be above that?
1- We are made in His image. He put His nature in us. We have a God-like nature that no other species on earth has.
2- God gets angry (even though He is slow to anger) and jealous (not insecure). The difference He does not sin.
3- Should He be above that? Are you suggesting that emotions are not good? God has good emotions. He is pleased at times - just like He is angry at times. Anyway, that's how God is put together, and He made us with those same emotions.
Look at it this way - if God didn't have emotions, we wouldn't have emotions, since we are made in His image. How would life be without emotions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman
The idea that God had to sacrifice his Son - who was also Himself - in order to appease ourselves…if he was all powerful why was this sacrifice required?
Hebrews 9:22 was quoted earlier. God requires a sacrifice for sins. Why? I don't know. But that's what He wants, and He provided the means for the proper sacrifice.
I do know that God does not want an impure sacrifice - which is why Jesus was conceived outside of the normal process (outside of Adam's domain). Jesus was without sin and corruption, which made His sacrifice acceptable to the Father.
God and the Son are two different entities that are unified. God did not sacrifice Himself.
The sacrifice was not to appease ourselves - it was to appease God.
The last question - God is all powerful, but He is also holy. We have to be clean from sin in order to be in His presence.
It seems like you are applying your logic as to how God should operate. If one of my kids told me that they did not like the way I ran my household - I would ask them - who feeds you? who clothes you? who pays for housing, water, electric, etc.? In other words, this is my realm for which I am responsible - which includes my minor children. The best thing for them to do is align themselves to me if they want any extra blessings from me.
Same for God. Take Him for who He is. Don't tell Him how He should run things - just try to understand Him and have a relationship with Him. And by the way - Job had similar questions when He thought He was treated unfairly. God's answer is in Job 38-41. Might be worth a read.
What frustrates me is that some - even those close to me - feel I am deliberately attacking Christianity when it is precisely because I’ve forced myself to believe/reconcile these things in my mind for so long that these doubts have simmered, repressed, until recently. I feel by getting them out into the open can I really work through them and have a true and genuine faith, if that is to be.
I understand. For me, I just always assumed it was my lack of understanding that was the problem. I know and trust that God knows what He is doing. So when there is a conflict in doctrine, I just take my time and work through it. Sometimes it's months before something is resolved to where it makes sense for me.
Paul describes his early Christian life in Galatians 1 - and how he went away for three years before returning to Jerusalem and meeting with Peter. Some things just take time.
As Proverbs 3:5 says - do not lean on your own understanding, but trust in the Lord.
Nothing made sense to me either until I went to concordant.org
They really opened my eyes to all my questions like Why did God allow evil? Why all the suffering? Will God really torture people for eternity? and on and on. All answered.
The Bible. Christians say that we have to read the Bible and that is how God talks to us. What about the masses throughout history who have been illiterate, who have relied on the clergy, often corrupt and immoral, or preachers, to tell them what they need to hear? These messages were often also designed to keep them in check. Did God intend that only the literate would fully appreciate Him? And was it not humans that chose the modern canon of the Bible? How sure are we that they were divinely inspired when putting together these books? And there are countless disagreements over the meaning/right way to interpret certain passages in the Bible. People mostly believe what their church teachers, even those who claim to rely on ‘scripture alone.’
God does use the life accounts in the Bible to speak to our souls.
Corrupt clergy? Are we instructed to depend on the clergy? Our main relationship should be with God through the Holy Spirit. If church leaders are corrupt, we should get out of there and go somewhere else with better leadership - and let God deal with the corrupt leader.
Humans choose the canon? Yes, through the working of God through the Holy Spirit.
How sure are we? God has put nothing in me to doubt what has been presented as His Word.
Disagreements? There are plenty. Seems like if we subject ourselves to the Holy Spirit, we should at least get the major teachings correct. Some of the non-essential doctrines will have disagreements - which is OK.
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