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What does it mean\symbolize to do the sign of the cross? Thanks
To the Roman Syncretic Polytheists it meant the punishment reserved for traitors of the State.
To Christians it symbolizes the death and resurrection of their incarnated God.
To Jews it symbolizes a failed Messianic prophesy about no harm coming to the Messiah nor his Israel.
To Muslims it symbolizes their prophet (son of man) and messiah's (son of god) Jesus's slight of hand against the Roman Victory and Occupation against Allah's old chosen Kingdom.
... Oh you are actually talking about the hand gesture? It is used by Christian denominations (especially Catholic and perhaps Orthodox) to symbolize protection, God, and belonging to the group as a crucified/oppressed individual.
Give some credit to the Catholic Church of that
era. The Church was able to convert to Christianity the Roman Empire despite
their clinging to paganism. That is an amazing feat! The church was also
able to obtain funds to build new churches and to further expand Christianity to
the rest of the Europe using the empire as a vehicle. You may see that as a
negative, but Christianity got a major boost with the backing of the Empire.
And eventually the Bishops became more powerful than the Emperors. This was
probably due to greed by the Popes, but a feat in itself. One has to wonder if
Christianity would have survived without Rome.
Dear Julian,
The Roman church succeeded because it was established by Constantine to consolidate the power of Rome, which included the consolidation of the pagan practices into the Roman church practices.
As for the church being able to build the great basilica for Peter, it was done on the backs of the poor peasants through the use of indulgences, whereas the poor widow coughed over what she had to get the sins of her husband forgiven who had just died. I think this would be under the category of an abomination. As for indulgences, it is still a practice which is used today to milk the old and feeble.
And yes the church became a great land owner, and is still one of the greatest land owners in the world today. In the middle ages, even Luther backed the church against the peasant revolt, which the peasants, who were serfs to the church and state, demanded to be treated fairly. The Lutheran church is also one of the largest and richest of the churches, which only pales next to that of the treasure of Rome. The Catholic Church is the Biggest Financial Power on Earth | Humans Are Free
Some idea of the real estate and other forms of wealth controlled by the Catholic church may be gathered by the remark of a member of the New York Catholic Conference, namely ‘that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.’ Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. ‘The Catholic church,’ he said, ‘must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.’” - See more at: The Catholic Church is the Biggest Financial Power on Earth | Humans Are Free
Dear Julian,
The Roman church succeeded because it was established by Constantine to consolidate the power of Rome, which included the consolidation of the pagan practices into the Roman church practices.
As for the church being able to build the great basilica for Peter, it was done on the backs of the poor peasants through the use of indulgences, whereas the poor widow coughed over what she had to get the sins of her husband forgiven who had just died. I think this would be under the category of an abomination. As for indulgences, it is still a practice which is used today to milk the old and feeble.
And yes the church became a great land owner, and is still one of the greatest land owners in the world today. In the middle ages, even Luther backed the church against the peasant revolt, which the peasants, who were serfs to the church and state, demanded to be treated fairly. The Lutheran church is also one of the largest and richest of the churches, which only pales next to that of the treasure of Rome. The Catholic Church is the Biggest Financial Power on Earth | Humans Are Free
Some idea of the real estate and other forms of wealth controlled by the Catholic church may be gathered by the remark of a member of the New York Catholic Conference, namely ‘that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.’ Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. ‘The Catholic church,’ he said, ‘must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.’” - See more at: The Catholic Church is the Biggest Financial Power on Earth | Humans Are Free
Constantine conversion is a mystery, but many believe it was sincere (even if he misunderstood Christianity).
And you are a Christian because of the fusion of the RCC and the Roman Empire. Was the church barbaric? Sure, the men running it became corrupt. But, that doe not detract to the achievements of the Church. It brought Christendom to all of Europe and the Americas. It created a university system in Europe and a patron of art and education. The RCC was the biggest institution in our Western Civilization. And as much as many hate Catholicism, without the church there is no Luther and the protestant offspring.
And in ancient times the church forced the empire to be more benevolent with the poor.
I will never deny the enormous power the church had during the middle ages with the Papal states and even a standing army. But, the men of that era were barbarians. At the same time do not forget those Catholics that lived a monastic life or the ascetics. The Christianization of the world was not all bad.
2ndpillar: What do you mean by the consolidation of the pagan practices into the Roman church practices.? And what do you mean by «As for indulgences, it is still a practice which is used today to milk the old and feeble»? It isn't taken money for indulgences anymore. Thanks
2ndpillar: What do you mean by the consolidation of the pagan practices into the Roman church practices.? And what do you mean by «As for indulgences, it is still a practice which is used today to milk the old and feeble»? It isn't taken money for indulgences anymore. Thanks
He might mean that the Mass style, temple lavishness, and ritual formulas are all more similar to Syncretic Polytheist and ancient Jewish practices, then to how Jesus and Paul were running Churches.
The Churches tell the aging people that as they give their money to the Church expenses, they are sowing seeds in Heaven... It might even be backed by how Paul influenced the fringe pagans he converted into giving him money. If you can't sow the seed of helping and seeing your own family then such limp plants wouldn't be so tantalizing for the nearly dying.
Dear travic,
You misunderstand me. I could image that the 21st century Janelle and Julian could still get a tingle down their leg when they are in the presence of the great churches, especially if our Muslim messiah in chief is giving a reading. I would assume that they limit their donations to a weekly remittance, but as death approaches, I am sure they would consider trying to buy their way into some comfortable apartment in heaven by the way of using indulgences. The fact that the kingdom of God will be on earth (Rev 12:10), doesn't seem to affect their thinking. Even Yeshua giving the warning to "come out of her"(Rev 18:4), seems to remain unheard.
As for being in the current "dark age", I think Yeshua better described it as being the "end of the age", whereas the angels will come and gather up the tares, those that are mixed with the good wheat, and that commit lawlessness and are stumbling-blocks. (Mt 13:41)
As for the House of God, it is known as Mt Zion, the mountain of God, and it has an entrance price (Is 56:6), and the proceeds do not go to the bishops of Rome, nor to the construction of some ediface.
2ndpillar: What do you mean by the consolidation of the pagan practices into the Roman church practices.? And what do you mean by «As for indulgences, it is still a practice which is used today to milk the old and feeble»? It isn't taken money for indulgences anymore. Thanks
Dear Petro,
The indulgence rules were changed in 1967, but I have heard of no revocation of indulgences. The rules may have changed, but the old people still give their property to the church hoping for some kind of redemption. They may discourage the overt selling of indulgences, but no one is informing the old people that the church is simply going to use their assets to pay off law suits with respect to illegal actions of priests. The Daily Finance, based on a New York Times report, says that the church does take money for indulgences. Buy your way to Heaven! The Catholic Church brings back indulgences - DailyFinance
As for pagan practices being consolidated into the Roman church, try the birthday of Constantine's god Sol Invictus, which is the 25th of December. Try the changing of the Commandments by a decree by Constantine to make the "day of the Sun" the day of rest, in the year 321 A.D. Try looking at substituting the feast of Ishar, Easter, for the last supper prior to Passover, which is on the 14th day of the 1st month of the year, and not on the closest Sunday, with respect to New moon, near the spring equinox. Christ, Constantine, Sol Invictus
By the bull Indulgentiarum doctrina[SIZE=2][19][/SIZE] of 1 January 1967, Pope Paul VI, responding to suggestions made at the Second Vatican Council, substantially revised the practical application of the traditional doctrine.[SIZE=2][20][/SIZE] He made it clear that the Church's aim was not merely to help the faithful make due satisfaction for their sins, but chiefly to bring them to greater fervour of charity. For this purpose he decreed that partial indulgences, previously granted as the equivalent of a certain number of days, months, "quarantines"[SIZE=2][21][/SIZE] (Lent-like forty-day periods) or years of canonical penance, simply supplement, and to the same degree, the remission that those performing the indulgenced action already gain by the charity and contrition with which they do it.[SIZE=2][6][/SIZE] The abolition of the classification by years and days made it clearer than before that repentance and faith are required not only for remission of eternal punishment for mortal sin but also for remission of temporal punishment for sin. In Indulgentiarum doctrina Pope Paul VI wrote: "Indulgences cannot be gained without a sincere conversion of outlook and unity with God".[SIZE=2][22][/SIZE]Indulgence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Constantine conversion is a mystery, but many believe it was sincere (even if he misunderstood Christianity).
And you are a Christian because of the fusion of the RCC and the Roman Empire. Was the church barbaric? Sure, the men running it became corrupt. But, that doe not detract to the achievements of the Church. It brought Christendom to all of Europe and the Americas. It created a university system in Europe and a patron of art and education. The RCC was the biggest institution in our Western Civilization. And as much as many hate Catholicism, without the church there is no Luther and the protestant offspring.
And in ancient times the church forced the empire to be more benevolent with the poor.
I will never deny the enormous power the church had during the middle ages with the Papal states and even a standing army. But, the men of that era were barbarians. At the same time do not forget those Catholics that lived a monastic life or the ascetics. The Christianization of the world was not all bad.
Dear Julian,
I am neither a Roman Church, or of its' daughter, the Protestant church. There is very little difference between the two. The are both daughters of Babylon, and follow the same pagan traditions that originated with Nimrod, on through the god king Constantine, and his favorite sun god, Sol Invictus. Christ, Constantine, Sol Invictus
Being brought up in a Catholic family, I can appreciate the church for being so obviously wrong headed. Having friends of the Protestant faith, I can appreciate their devotion to the bible, and the obvious double minded results that emanated from their beliefs. Fortunately, because they didn't understand that Yeshua was testifying against their actions, they left his words, and the O.T. in tact, which is the actual base of the true church. They simply nailed to the cross anything that they felt was threatening.
Dear Julian,
I am neither a Roman Church, or of its' daughter, the Protestant church. There is very little difference between the two. The are both daughters of Babylon, and follow the same pagan traditions that originated with Nimrod, on through the god king Constantine, and his favorite sun god, Sol Invictus. Christ, Constantine, Sol Invictus
Being brought up in a Catholic family, I can appreciate the church for being so obviously wrong headed. Having friends of the Protestant faith, I can appreciate their devotion to the bible, and the obvious double minded results that emanated from their beliefs. Fortunately, because they didn't understand that Yeshua was testifying against their actions, they left his words, and the O.T. in tact, which is the actual base of the true church. They simply nailed to the cross anything that they felt was threatening.
I don't mind the wealth at all. At least it belongs to the Church and not a person.
I am not concerned with the adaptation of other traditions. Some people are very concerned about such things but I would actually enjoy the mass in Latin. I enjoy the Old Traditions instead of the constant change to modernism. I think the Swiss Guard is rather cool.
You forget how barbaric and ignorant our ancestors were. So the evolution of Christianity was inevitable.
You must belong to the same church of Eusebius who is neither Catholic or Protestant.
Lastly, what you call pagan I don't see as pagan because a Christian cannot be a pagan. I don't pray to Mary, but I am moved when I see someone in church doing devotion to the virgin. I know God knows their heart,
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