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I was watching MSNBC today and I heard one of the presidential canidates make reference to Romney's Mormon religion believing that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Romney, who is a devout Mormon sure did not deny this belief. Mormons and Christians have nothing in common. This teaching goes against everything we believe in.
I don't think u will ever hear a mormon deny that especially if asked about it directly. What is interesting is they are not forth coming about their belief of that unholy brotherhood. I am not attempting to smear mormons, but their doctrine should be able to stand up under the scrutiny of the HOLY BIBLE and they should be up front about exactly what it is they believe. I know I personally feel from my studies with them that they have a hidden agenda to "ween" me off the HOLY BIBLE and push me into their book. The problem is their book contradicts the HOLY BIBLE. And there seems to be no end to it when u add the voice of their phrophets who have the authority to add to it as they see fit. I think Romney's bid for the White House will cause people to really take a close look at exactly what mormons believe and many people who truely believe the BIBLE are not going to be comfortable with LDS.
Well, that assumes the authors of the Bible were not writing stories based on preceding books. As far as the Bible being scientifically verified is concerned, hardly. The only thing we know for sure is the people and periods mentioned in the Bible existed. I can write fictional books on American history and then claim history proves my stories are true. I can also write fictional stories based on history using actual persons and make even greater claims. There is no scientific evidence that any of the events in the Bible ever took place. There is no evidence of mass crucifixions. There is no evidence the walls of Jericho came down. There is no evidence of the Exodus. The only written records of a quasi scientific nature are those of Josephus.
Next, you assume much in how the Bible was revealed, by stating the Book of Mormon was secretly revealed thus inferring the Bible was not. The truth is no one knows how any of the Bible’s books were revealed to the individual authors. If you think the authors were standing in the town square while a shaft of light carried God’s audible words into their heads, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you should buy.
I’m sorry; could you be so kind as to show me where this is in the title of the thread? I must have missed it. I thought this was a thread about what Mormons really believe. I can’t find anything in the title about Mormons claim to share your beliefs. I will, however, honor your desire and not ask you questions about your beliefs. Too bad it isn't a two way street. Maybe you could start a thread about what you believe so I could learn more.
What do Mormons really believe? Let's discuss Mormonism!!!
Why is what I said not relevant to this thread? What do Mormons believe? They believe they are Christians. What I said deals with that. Ask me anything you like about my beliefs. It IS a two-way street. But, Sergeant1, you yourself said that that is not the topic of this thread!
Is it only the biblical historical events that you have trouble with? Your approach to history makes every historical event questionable.
Were there such people as the Medes and Persians? What about Julius Caesar or Hannibal? Was there really a Black Death in the 14th century? What about Kublai Khan? Much of history is taken upon faith. We read our history books and we take on faith that those events took place and those people actually existed. That is why I said we all operate on some level of faith. My point was this (based upon faith that the records our true), I find the Bible more plausible and its unified contents more tenable based upon the number of authors and the great span of time involved than a book given to one man in solitude in a very short span of time. Surely you understand my point.
The Bible is not devoid of evidence--Palestine and the land of Israel exist. Egypt exists and its own history verifies the existence of the Pharaohs. Most people accept the Babylonian, the Persian, the Greek, and the Roman empires as authentic. Many biblical places still exist to this day. These things and many others make the historical contents of the Bible at least possible even to those who do not accept its theological message.
On the other hand, there is no archaeological evidence for any place mentioned in the Book of Mormon. None! There is no support for the people who supposedly lived in those "locations." Does that in and of itself make it false. No. But it does shed great suspicion on its veracity.
Also, Joseph Smith himself claimed that everything he was given to write was perfect, yet there have been nearly 4000 changes in the Book of Mormon over time to correct the errors found within it. I am not taking this on faith--I have "The 3913 Changes to the Book of Mormon" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner. I can see the changes myself. We have pointed out these changes to Mormon missionaries we have welcomed into our home. They were totally unaware.
Do you suppose Christians point out these facts in order to be mean and hateful? Perhaps you do. These issues are of eternal consequence--what we believe or do not believe determines our destiny. My motive, whether you accept it or not, is to share the true Christ of the Bible, the only one who saves. My husband, as a Mormon, could never claim that he was saved and that he had eternal life. No Mormon can. They must keep striving and working up until their death, hoping they have done enough to earn their salvation. Thanks be to God that 1 John 5:13 gave my husband assurance of salvation and led him out of Mormonism--"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
That is my desire for those outside of Christ to include Mormons.
And LDS spokeswoman said that claim is "usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith" ... however "We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for."
What verse by Paul are you referring to? Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees--"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:44).
We must BECOME children of God--"But as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, to those who BELIEVE in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD" (John 1:12). When we are made His sons through faith, then we become "brothers and sisters" to Christ--not before.
We are not all children of God--we must become children of God. He is our "father" only in the sense that we are all His creation. The relationship ends there.
Furthermore, Satan is a CREATED being--an angel. He was and is and will always be other than human. To call him the spirit brother of Jesus and to suggest that Jesus Himself is a created being is already going outside the acceptable doctrines of Christianity.
What Mormons do not tell others is that they believe there is also a mother god. She and Father God have sexual relations which produce the spirit children (such as Jesus and Satan!). We all come about that way--that's what supposedly makes us brothers and sisters! Then our spirits "born" to mother and father god inhabit the physical bodies of those born on earth. That is far outside the boundaries of Christianity.
Again, I do not deny Mormons the right to exist and to have their beliefs. I do not hate them and wish them harm in any way. However, I will defend my own faith and doctrines against those who want to unite themselves to Christianity when they do not share the most fundamental tenets of it. That is the issue.
Why is what I said not relevant to this thread? What do Mormons believe? They believe they are Christians. What I said deals with that. Ask me anything you like about my beliefs. It IS a two-way street. But, Sergeant1, you yourself said that that is not the topic of this thread!
Is it only the biblical historical events that you have trouble with? Your approach to history makes every historical event questionable.
Were there such people as the Medes and Persians? What about Julius Caesar or Hannibal? Was there really a Black Death in the 14th century? What about Kublai Khan? Much of history is taken upon faith. We read our history books and we take on faith that those events took place and those people actually existed. That is why I said we all operate on some level of faith. My point was this (based upon faith that the records our true), I find the Bible more plausible and its unified contents more tenable based upon the number of authors and the great span of time involved than a book given to one man in solitude in a very short span of time. Surely you understand my point.
The Bible is not devoid of evidence--Palestine and the land of Israel exist. Egypt exists and its own history verifies the existence of the Pharaohs. Most people accept the Babylonian, the Persian, the Greek, and the Roman empires as authentic. Many biblical places still exist to this day. These things and many others make the historical contents of the Bible at least possible even to those who do not accept its theological message.
On the other hand, there is no archaeological evidence for any place mentioned in the Book of Mormon. None! There is no support for the people who supposedly lived in those "locations." Does that in and of itself make it false. No. But it does shed great suspicion on its veracity.
Also, Joseph Smith himself claimed that everything he was given to write was perfect, yet there have been nearly 4000 changes in the Book of Mormon over time to correct the errors found within it. I am not taking this on faith--I have "The 3913 Changes to the Book of Mormon" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner. I can see the changes myself. We have pointed out these changes to Mormon missionaries we have welcomed into our home. They were totally unaware.
Do you suppose Christians point out these facts in order to be mean and hateful? Perhaps you do. These issues are of eternal consequence--what we believe or do not believe determines our destiny. My motive, whether you accept it or not, is to share the true Christ of the Bible, the only one who saves. My husband, as a Mormon, could never claim that he was saved and that he had eternal life. No Mormon can. They must keep striving and working up until their death, hoping they have done enough to earn their salvation. Thanks be to God that 1 John 5:13 gave my husband assurance of salvation and led him out of Mormonism--"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
That is my desire for those outside of Christ to include Mormons.
Preterist
You are simply restating what I have already written. Yes, places, such as Egypt, Israel, and Rome all existed. Yes, many of the people mentioned in the Bible existed, but this still does not prove any of the events in the Bible ever happened.
No archeological proof of the Book of Mormon!?!? You obviously haven’t made an effort to do any real research. You clearly have done nothing other than accept the word of someone who is not a member of the Church. I suggest you start with this basic book: Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon.
The content of the Book of Mormon was perfect as Joseph received it; however, the manner in which it was published was not. Spelling, punctuation, and the original format—without verses—in which it was published was not in the form we know today. The Book of Mormon has had modifications to make it conform to commonly accepted standards of spelling, punctuation, and grammar. There have also been changes so as to make some of the Hebrew idioms more understandable. It has also been reformatted into verses, but the content and meaning is still precisely the same. No changes in meaning have been made. You might start with this page:
Next, the Bible is grammatically improper, does that make it false? The Bible has had an untold number of changes through translation; does this fact make it false? There are a number of different versions of the Bible. We know the Bible was modified and books were deleted; do these facts make the Bible false?
Finally, let’s examine your statement that Mormons cannot claim they are saved and must keep striving until death. That is—partially—correct. I wish I could believe your rules applied. In other words, all I have to do is accept Jesus as my Savior and everything is OK. With that kind of rule, I could engage in any number of evil acts, then simply repent and be saved in the end. Wow, that would be GREAT! Booze, broads, drugs, gambling, and then find Jesus and slip right into Heaven. I know a heap of thugs in state prisons that play that game with their parole boards.
Next, let me address the LDS perspective. It takes more than accepting Jesus. One must prove he or she is serious about that acceptance. One must do good works in furtherance of Jesus’ plan. Now, after a lifetime of attempting to do good works, we will fall short. I don’t know about you, but I can’t match Christ’s energy levels. Because we have fallen short, we will then need the Grace part. In other words, Christ will make up for our shortcomings.
Finally, as far as I am concerned, I am on the road to salvation. All I need to do is keep putting one foot in front of the other, stay on the correct path, and strive to do the work Christ would have me do.
You “saved” your husband from Mormonism. That’s special.
Finally, let’s examine your statement that Mormons cannot claim they are saved and must keep striving until death. That is—partially—correct. I wish I could believe your rules applied. In other words, all I have to do is accept Jesus as my Savior and everything is OK. With that kind of rule, I could engage in any number of evil acts, then simply repent and be saved in the end. Wow, that would be GREAT! Booze, broads, drugs, gambling, and then find Jesus and slip right into Heaven. I know a heap of thugs in state prisons that play that game with their parole boards.
Sergeant, I agree in some ways with what you have said here. Yeah, we do believe that accepting Jesus is all we need and that is what prompts the changes in our hearts/lives and gives us the blessed hope for our salvation. That being said though, I can sadly claim that there are those in the christian faith who follow a lifestyle that is, let's just say, contrary to what Jesus has stated is His desire for ways to live. Unfortunately, these lifestyles transcend any religious boundaries and we all probably know someone who is not living according to their faith.
I have some friends who live the kind of life you mentioned and we have debated this issue amongst ourselves numerous times. Obviously, I cannot change their thoughts on this so all I can do is live my life according to what Jesus says in His Word and do my best. A lot of people believe in deathbed confessions and I have heard stories of that happening. Hard to say but we may never know until our time comes to leave this life and stand before God.
I guess all we can do is live as Jesus has told us to and pray for others to be overcomers regarding thorns and strongholds in their lives. Blessings.
Last edited by urbanlemur; 12-13-2007 at 11:49 AM..
Reason: spelling
After reading over the posts on Mormons, I had a good laugh at the very petty opinions of 'fellow' Christians. Upon thinking it over, I felt sad. I began thinking about all the LDS young people that are in Iraq and Afganistan fighting for our country while saying a constant prayer to their father in heaven to keep them in safety. I think of them taking the sacrament in the name of Jesus Christ each week and re-newing their vow taken at baptisim to try to be like him. I think of their belief in the father son and holy spirit, the same God and son that all of you say you worship and I am reminded that it is almost always ignorance that breeds these kind of judgements. My Mormon friends are some of the finest people I have ever met and woe to me that I feel I could never measure up the their quality, integrity and family values. Oh by the way, one of the reasons I think other denominations trash them is because they do not have paid clergy. Their Bishops serve totally volunteer and every penny donated to the church is accounted for.
Saying that Mormons believe satan is Jesus brother is sick and erroneous. We have an evil force in this world that wants to slaughter all christians. It's time christians quit 'nit picking' and present a united front.
Saying that Mormons believe Satan is Jesus brother is sick and erroneous.
Jean, I appreciate your comments, but I want to clarify the above. We do in fact believe Satan to be a spirit child of our Heavenly Father; therefore, it makes him Christ's spirit brother. Now, Satan and a third part of all our Heavenly Father's children rebelled and were thrust out of Heaven and constitute Satan and his servants. It is important to understand that regardless of his origins, Satan is evil and wants to bring us all down.
It is difficult for mainstream Christians to understand our belief, and more often than not, it makes them angry. They can't conceive that Satan could possibly be a spirit brother of Christ. Mainstream Christians acknowledge that God created all things; therefore, He created Satan, but they just hate our explanation of how that creation took place. My perspective is simple. If my brother was a mass murderer, he would still be my father's son and my brother. It may be embarrassing that my brother is evil, but it doesn’t make me evil. I mean after all, Able had Cain for a brother.
Unfortunately, our detractors attempt to infer that our belief that Satan is a spirit brother of Christ proves we revere or worship him, when such is not even remotely true. Satan is Satan and absolutely the enemy of our Heavenly Father and all mankind.
We do in fact believe Satan to be a spirit child of our Heavenly Father; therefore, it makes him Christ's spirit brother.
Undoubtedly, this is probably one of the biggest sticking points between the LDS church doctrine and the doctrine of Baptists, Lutheran, Methodists, etc. Since we believe that God is Jesus is the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Trinity), He has no equal, nor does He have a relation in the sense of what you mentioned. However, we do believe that God threw Satan out of heaven for the reasons that you mentioned.
I know this causes a lot of consternation between the groups and is probably one of many issues that will never be reconciled. It's a good thing we have two way streets or we would be colliding an awful lot. (Come to think of it, we do a pretty good job of that anyway, don't we?)
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