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Ke’pha is a movable stone, equating to; Lithos and Petros.
Now, the word SHU’A is translated as a Massive Rock.
So, let’s say it this way: You are Ke'pha (a movable stone); and upon this SHU’A (an immovable rock) I will build my church. Or, how about this: You are PETROS (a rolling stone); and upon this PETRA (a large massive rock) I will build my church.
I find it interesting that the stone before the tomb of Jesus our Lord, was movable, rolled aside:
"And the gates of hell shall not prevail."
Apparently, it is Christ Jesus who holds the key to life, releasing us from bondage.
Your posts are way to long my friend. You are reading a lot into those verses.
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
This is what i believe the catholic church has done along with all organized religion. The key of knowledge that anyone by faith can go directly and boldly to God within themselves for God to meet them, without having to belong to something or go through some tradition or formula put in place by men ordained of men to feel after and find him, is the key of knowledge that has been taken away.
Having the key of knowledge taken away, it got replaced by burdensome dogmatic teachings, traditions and superstitions of men by those claiming to be God's agents on earth, thus it alienated man from God in their minds, and in believing they were separated from God,caused them to look outside of themselves and to others they believed are God's agents here on earth.
The Pope may be a wonderful man( we know many have been devils too), but he has no authority over those who seek after the Lord and worship him in spirit and truth.
Quote:
Your posts are way to long my friend. You are reading a lot into those verses.
AMEN to that. I stopped reading his posts right after I realized he assumes he's the only one that knows anything, and saw he's simply repeating over and over the untruths that God lead me away from a long time ago.
Last edited by mshipmate; 04-17-2014 at 09:48 PM..
ONE CATHOLIC "DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH" ON "THE ROCK."
“In Peter, which means Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the Rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, 'They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ' (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the Rock, like a Christian is from Christ. Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be understood. Christ, you see, built His Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer"
He had misunderstood prior to this also.
Rocky, Nate ... Really ... he called Peter, Rocky??? I'd love to see the link, maybe we'll stumble across Apollo Creed! Kidding with you Nate.
We went through this a few days ago. That quote above is so desperate. Don't lie to yourself by literally changing the quotes of great men, or anyone for that matter.
That passage from Augustine is often quoted out of context to support the protestant view that Augustine changed his mind on the Papacy. HE DID NO SUCH THING!!!.
The fact is, the passage is not a change of mind, but a bringing up of two comments which Augustine made when making different points on the subject. He accepts both views as genuine & the reader is left to decide which interpretation they prefer at any given moment. Nowhere does Augustine deny that either interpretation is valid. Remember also, that many in other passages (that I have listed) he absolutely confirms his belief in the Papacy.
Finally, Nate, those collection of quote's from Augustine are NOT called, "Retractions", they are called (officially) by its Latin title, "Retractationes" which does not mean he retracted his prior belief in the Papacy, but means he reconsidered, or made revisions to some of his earlier works.
AMEN to that. I stopped reading his posts right after I realized he assumes he's the only one that knows anything, and saw he's simply repeating over and over the untruths that God lead me away from a long time ago.
Perhaps you stopped reading because you want to worship God your own way and would rather not face the truth, because that would cause major changes in your life, if you were to learn, that you had made a huge mistake in leaving the Church.
On the positive side, however, think what facing the truth would do for God & your soul!
Read the posts in their entirety, and challenge yourself, for your sake and for Gods sake, too!
That passage from Augustine is often quoted out of context to support the protestant view that Augustine changed his mind on the Papacy. HE DID NO SUCH THING!!!.
The fact is, the passage is not a change of mind, but a bringing up of two comments which Augustine made when making different points on the subject. He accepts both views as genuine & the reader is left to decide which interpretation they prefer at any given moment. Nowhere does Augustine deny that either interpretation is valid. Remember also, that many in other passages (that I have listed) he absolutely confirms his belief in the Papacy.
.
No, as I said, Augustine supported the Papacy, he just realized that this passage could not be used to do so.
“]Number the bishops from the see of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who succeeded whom, That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail.” (Psalmus contra partem Donati, 18 (A.D. 393),GCC 51).
“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock[/color] and they refuse to believe that the keys of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church.” (Christian Combat, 31:33(A.D. 397), in JUR,3:51).
“For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: ‘Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !’ The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of ‘mountain men,’ or Cutzupits, by which they were known.” To Generosus, Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400), in NPNF1,I:298
“Among these [apostles] it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, ‘To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Mt 16:19)... Quite rightly too did the Lord after his resurrection entrust his sheep to Peter to be fed. It’s not, you see, that he alone among the disciples was fit to feed the Lord’s sheep; but when Christ speaks to one man, unity is being commended to us. And he first speaks to Peter, because Peter is first among the apostles.” (Sermon 295:2-4 (A.D. 410), in WOA3,8:197-199)
“So does the Church act in blessed hope through this troublous life; and this Church symbolized in its generality, was personified in the Apostle Peter, on account of the primacy of his apostleship.” (On the Gospel of John, Tract 124:5 (A.D. 416), in NPNF1, VII:450)
“When, therefore, He had said to His disciples, ‘Will ye also go away?” Peter, that Rock, answered with the voice of all, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.’ “Homilies on John, Tract 11:5(A.D. 417), in NPNF1,VII:76
“And the Lord, to him to whom a little before He had said, ‘Blessed thou art, and upon this Rock I will build my Church,’ saith, ‘Go back behind, Satan, an offence thou art to Me.’ Why therefore ‘Satan’ is he, that a little before was ‘blessed,’ and a ‘Rock’ ?” In Psalms, 56[55]:14[PL 36, 656] (A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:223
“Peter, who had confessed Him as the Son of God, and in that confession had been called the rock upon which the Church should be built.” In Psalms, 69:4[PL 36, 869] (A.D. 418), in Butler, 251
“And if a Jew asks us why we do that, we sound from the rock, we say, This Peter did, this Paul did: from the midst of the rocks we give our voice. But that rock, Peter himself, that great mountain, when he prayed and saw that vision, was watered from above.” In Psalms, 104[103]:16(A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:513
“For as some things are said which seem peculiarly to apply to the Apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning, unless when referred to the Church, whom he is acknowledged to have figuratively represented, on account of the primacy which he bore among the Disciples.” (On the Psalms,108[109]:1(A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:536)
Did Augustine change his mind later in life? Did he simply mis-state his position earlier? Hard to say.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9 [emphasis added]
So you see, Catholics take a both/and view of this verse - not either/or. Both Jesus and Peter are viewed as Rock.
Augustine was perfectly free to decide for himself what he believed about it, and whether he came to believe that the rock was Peter's confession of faith exclusively or not is immaterial to the legitimacy of the papacy.
Last edited by june 7th; 04-18-2014 at 09:09 AM..
Reason: The color red is reserved for mod cuts within posts. Using any other color is fine. Thanks!
AMEN to that. I stopped reading his posts right after I realized he assumes he's the only one that knows anything, and saw he's simply repeating over and over the untruths that God lead me away from a long time ago.
Perhaps you stopped reading because you want to worship God your own way and would rather not face the truth, because that would cause major changes in your life, if you were to learn, that you had made a huge mistake in leaving the Church.
On the positive side, however, think what facing the truth would do for God & your soul!
Read the posts in their entirety, and challenge yourself, for your sake and for Gods sake, too!
LALALALALALALA I can't hear you LALALALALALALALALAL
Gabe-
Don't be discouraged...scripture tells us to expect this.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
At some point, it is better to shake the dust from your feet...casting pearls before swine is a waste of time.
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I'd love to see the link, maybe we'll stumble across Apollo Creed!
Kidding with you Nate.
