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The reference in Ezekiel 18:4,20 is to physical death. It is not saying that the immaterial part of the man - the soul can die. The soul cannot die. Physical life is the soul in the body. When the soul departs from the body that is physical death. Again, Jesus made it clear that while man can kill the body, he cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10:28).
'Damnation theology' as you call it is not the topic.
Uh, Ezekiel says "SOUL" not body. The soul can and does die. Jesus pointed out that God can destroy it, so it isn't immortal. Unless you know something Jesus doesn't?
The idea of an immaterial soul is from Plato who was not led by God's spirit but misled a lot of theologians.
No, you did not. You made an unsupported blanket statement concerning what I said about the rapture of the church and that the resurrection of the church-age believer occurs at the rapture. You said those interpretations were incorrect and made no attempt to back up your claim.
And no, you did not refute me. As I told you, while the body is mortal and therefore will need to be resurrected, the soul is immortal and does not die with the body. Jesus made that clear in Matthew 10:28.
Peter, knowing that he was about to die, made that clear in 2 Peter 1:13-15 when he spoke in terms of being in his earthly dwelling and laying it aside and departing from it. He was speaking of his soul being in his body and of laying his body aside and departing from it.
2 Peter 1:13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, (skēnōmati; tabernacle, tent) to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside(apotheosis; putting off, letting go, laying aside)of my earthly dwelling (skēnōmatos; tabernacle, tent) is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
This is language which speaks not of the soul dying, but of the soul departing from the body.
As for 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 there are different opinions about what Paul was referring to when he spoke of having a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, and being clothed with our dwelling from heaven. Some think it refers to the resurrection body, some think it refers to an intermediate state, an interim body after death and before the body is resurrected. Regardless, in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul is speaking of being absent from the body and at home with the Lord. ABSENT FROM THE BODY MEANS THAT HE IS NOT REFERRING TO BEING RESURRECTED. Once resurrected you are not absent from the body, you are in your resurrection body. Paul is speaking of departing from the body and being at home with the Lord in heaven.
So Mike, if everyone is immortal then why do we even refer to a term of "mortal" if there is no such thing?
Uh, Ezekiel says "SOUL" not body. The soul can and does die. Jesus pointed out that God can destroy it, so it isn't immortal. Unless you know something Jesus doesn't?
The idea of an immaterial soul is from Plato who was not led by God's spirit but misled a lot of theologians.
I have ALREADY clearly explained what is meant by that and I am not going to go over it again with you people.
So Mike, if everyone is immortal then why do we even refer to a term of "mortal" if there is no such thing?
Again, and for the last time, it is the body which is mortal and dies. The soul is immortal and does not die.
Mortality refers to the body. Not to the soul.
As Jesus clearly said, man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10:28).
And if those of you who believe in soul sleep cannot understand this and the other things I have said, then it is simply a waste of my time to keep going over it with you. Mainstream Christianity understands based on the Scriptures I have referred to on this thread and on other recent threads on the subject that soul sleep which is taught primarily by the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists is not Biblical. As can be clearly seen in Revelation 6:9-11 Tribulational martyrs are seen in heaven.
Soul sleep is refuted in the following articles which address the subject.
Now I have spent enough time explaining this, so you people believe what you want. I don't intend to bother with any further posts on this thread since the issue has been made clear.
Again, and for the last time, it is the body which is mortal and dies. The soul is immortal and does not die.
Mortality refers to the body. Not to the soul.
As Jesus clearly said, man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10:28).
And if those of you who believe in soul sleep cannot understand this and the other things I have said, then it is simply a waste of my time to keep going over it with you. Mainstream Christianity understands based on the Scriptures I have referred to on this thread and on other recent threads on the subject that soul sleep which is taught primarily by the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists is not Biblical. As can be clearly seen in Revelation 6:9-11 Tribulational martyrs are seen in heaven.
Soul sleep is refuted in the following articles which address the subject.
Now I have spent enough time explaining this, so you people believe what you want. I don't intend to bother with any further posts on this thread since the issue has been made clear.
So when you say "soul" are you referring to pneuma or psuche?
Again, and for the last time, it is the body which is mortal and dies. The soul is immortal and does not die.
Mortality refers to the body. Not to the soul.
As Jesus clearly said, man can kill the body, but he cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10:28).
And if those of you who believe in soul sleep cannot understand this and the other things I have said, then it is simply a waste of my time to keep going over it with you. Mainstream Christianity understands based on the Scriptures I have referred to on this thread and on other recent threads on the subject that soul sleep which is taught primarily by the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists is not Biblical. As can be clearly seen in Revelation 6:9-11 Tribulational martyrs are seen in heaven.
Soul sleep is refuted in the following articles which address the subject.
Now I have spent enough time explaining this, so you people believe what you want. I don't intend to bother with any further posts on this thread since the issue has been made clear.
You keep truncating Matt 10:28 qhuch clearly says the soul can be destroyed by God, thus NOT immortal. Maybe you can ddress the full verse.
ASV Matthew 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Greek appolomi
Liddel and Scott: 5112
avp&o,llu¯mi or &u,w, impf. avpw,llun or avpw,lluon: f. avpole,sw, Ep. avpole,ssw, Att. avpolw/, Ion. avpole,w: aor. i avpw,lesa, Ep. avpo,lessa: pf. avpolw,leka:-to destroy utterly, kill, slay, and of things, to destroy, demolish, waste,
Friberg Greek Lexicon: 3134 avpo,llumi ***. avpole,sw and avpolw/, mid. avpolou/mai; 1aor. avpw,lesa; 2aor. mid. avpwlo,mhn; second perfect avpo,lwla; (1) active ruin, destroy; (a) of persons destroy, kill, bring to ruin (MT 2.13); (b) with an impersonal object destroy, bring to nothing (1C 1.19); (c) of a reward lose, be deprived of (MT 10.42), opposite thre,w (maintain, keep); (2) middle be ruined, be destroyed (second perfect active as middle); (a) of persons die, perish, lose one's life (MT 8.25); (b) of things be lost, be ruined (MT 9.17); (c) of transitory things pass away, cease to exist, perish (1P 1.7)
The reference in Ezekiel 18:4,20 is to physical death. It is not saying that the immaterial part of the man - the soul can die. The soul cannot die. Physical life is the soul in the body. When the soul departs from the body that is physical death. Again, Jesus made it clear that while man can kill the body, he cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10:28).
I'm going to show you with Scripture that we are a living soul and no part of us is immortal.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath [nephesh/soul] life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature[nephesh/soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Animals are a nephesh, soul and have life.
Gen. 2:7 And YHVH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[nepheh]
Gen. 2:
15 And YHVH God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And YHVH God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This man, this soul, was told he would die if he ate of the tree.
Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Again it is repeated, eat of that tree and you will die.
Gen. 3:
17 ¶ And unto Adam God said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
3:22 ¶ And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore YHVH God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Question. IF Adam, [and mankind] were created with an immortal soul why did God have to drive them from the garden and the tree of life to keep them from living for ever?
Ec. 3:
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;[ruach] so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit [ruach] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [ruach] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Note: man and animals have one breath/spirit and are both a soul. So then I must ask this. If they both have the same spirit and both are a soul, then animals must be immortal too according to your teaching.
Now who put forth the first lie that man was created with immortality? Satan. Who continued to perpetuate this lie? First Plato, then Augustine and finally the RCC. And as they say, the rest is history. Or as someone once said, "If you repeat a lie often enough eventually people will believe it." And so they did, and satan's lie in the garden continues to be taught as truth.
It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible:
"The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent…"The Jewish Encyclopedia (JewishEncyclopedia.com, searched "immortality")
"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)
"...immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine…" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)
"It is a truism that Plato's teaching has profoundly influenced Christian anthropology." (Forward by F.F. Bruce, The Fire that Consumes, Edward Fudge)
Conclusion: Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.
Jewish Apostles Taught:
However, the scriptures teach the soul is destructible and immortality is part of the gospel.
"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)
"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy…" (James 4:12)
"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10)
Conclusion: Jesus and James taught the soul was destructible. Paul taught that immortality is brought through the gospel.
Humans, simply by virtue of their birth, do not possess ANYTHING that is immortal. The Bible is crystal clear that the ability to live forever is a gift from God to those who live a life obedient to him (1Corinthians 15:50-55, 2Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 2:7, 6:23, etc.). This is sometimes referred to as conditional immortality.
Now IF man does have a nephesh, instead of being a nephesh than I must ask a couple of questions:
1. If we have a soul, why does the first and second usage of the word neshesh translate as life and/or a living creature?
2. Man/animals are both called a soul i.e a living creature. But according to your teaching, if they have a soul instead, then why isn't the word immortal used in the creation verses?
Or in other words why doesn't Gen. 2:7 say, "God breathed into Adam's nostrils an immortal soul?"
If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess something that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified. He did not want his greatest creation, in a rebellious state of mind like the devil's, to immortally exist in unhappiness and misery.
Humans, simply by virtue of their birth, do not possess ANYTHING that is immortal. The Bible is crystal clear that the ability to live forever is a gift from God to those who live a life obedient to him (1Corinthians 15:50-55, 2Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 2:7, 6:23, etc.). This is sometimes referred to as conditional immortality.
Last edited by mshipmate; 05-29-2014 at 09:55 AM..
I'm going to show you with Scripture that we are a living soul and no part of us is immortal.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath [nephesh/soul] life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature[nephesh/soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Animals are a nephesh, soul and have life.
Gen. 2:7 And YHVH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[nepheh]
Gen. 2:
15 And YHVH God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And YHVH God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This man, this soul, was told he would die if he ate of the tree.
Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which YHVH God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Again it is repeated, eat of that tree and you will die.
Gen. 3:
17 ¶ And unto Adam God said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
3:22 ¶ And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore YHVH God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Question. IF Adam, [and mankind] were created with an immortal soul why did God have to drive them from the garden and the tree of life to keep them from living for ever?
Ec. 3:
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;[ruach] so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit [ruach] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [ruach] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Note: man and animals have one breath/spirit and are both a soul. So then I must ask this. If they both have the same spirit and both are a soul, then animals must be immortal too according to your teaching.
Now who put forth the first lie that man was created with immortality? Satan. Who continued to perpetuate this lie? First Plato, then Augustine and finally the RCC. And as they say, the rest is history. Or as someone once said, "If you repeat a lie often enough eventually people will believe it." And so they did, and satan's lie in the garden continues to be taught as truth.
It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible:
"The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent…"The Jewish Encyclopedia (JewishEncyclopedia.com, searched "immortality")
"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)
"...immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine…" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)
"It is a truism that Plato's teaching has profoundly influenced Christian anthropology." (Forward by F.F. Bruce, The Fire that Consumes, Edward Fudge)
Conclusion: Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.
Jewish Apostles Taught:
However, the scriptures teach the soul is destructible and immortality is part of the gospel.
"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)
"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy…" (James 4:12)
"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10)
Conclusion: Jesus and James taught the soul was destructible. Paul taught that immortality is brought through the gospel.
Humans, simply by virtue of their birth, do not possess ANYTHING that is immortal. The Bible is crystal clear that the ability to live forever is a gift from God to those who live a life obedient to him (1Corinthians 15:50-55, 2Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 2:7, 6:23, etc.). This is sometimes referred to as conditional immortality.
Now IF man does have a nephesh, instead of being a nephesh than I must ask a couple of questions:
1. If we have a soul, why does the first and second usage of the word neshesh translate as life and/or a living creature?
2. Man/animals are both called a soul i.e a living creature. But according to your teaching, if they have a soul instead, then why isn't the word immortal used in the creation verses?
Or in other words why doesn't Gen. 2:7 say, "God breathed into Adam's nostrils an immortal soul?"
If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess something that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified. He did not want his greatest creation, in a rebellious state of mind like the devil's, to immortally exist in unhappiness and misery.
Humans, simply by virtue of their birth, do not possess ANYTHING that is immortal. The Bible is crystal clear that the ability to live forever is a gift from God to those who live a life obedient to him (1Corinthians 15:50-55, 2Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 2:7, 6:23, etc.). This is sometimes referred to as conditional immortality.
But, But, But ... no one wants to think that they don't keep living after they ... die. It frightens them.
Uh, Ezekiel says "SOUL" not body. The soul can and does die. Jesus pointed out that God can destroy it, so it isn't immortal. Unless you know something Jesus doesn't?
The idea of an immaterial soul is from Plato who was not led by God's spirit but misled a lot of theologians.
Mike555's whole understanding of immortality lies in the belief that the soul is immortal. The word destroy there is to destroy completely and utterly - to finality if you will, so this would prove that the soul couldn't be immortal. For what is immortal cannot be hurt or mortalized.
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