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Warden, my friend, your story touched my heart, even if I am not into the us and them scenarios, as we all have faults or err at times. Believing doesn’t make a person more special than that of any another. It rains on the just and unjust alike. Perhaps, that’s just my opinion, but I stand by it. However, let me ask you a question: Is it not time for you to enjoy some of that sunshine, or for you to learn how to dance in the rains of life through love and forgiveness? Beating yourself up, over and over again isn’t going to change a thing, nor is it going to turn back the clock. Did it ever occur to you that her death had nothing to do with your heart’s desire?
Don’t put the blame for her death on God; it’s merely a part of this life. Sometimes, **** happens. As for how things have an effect, just be thankful that you have a consciousness. It is that which corrects and guides us with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. And love will never fail to turn things around. And if, it appears impossible for you, then, let the Spirit take over, instead of using your mind to control your feelings.
In all honesty, Warden, it sounds like the one who hates you, is you. Whether you will accept it or not, I have been in that dark pit, too. And I had no trouble at all, at that time, believing that God hated me with a righteous hatred. That didn't allow me to experience God's mercy OR love. It did keep me in the pit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Warden, my friend, your story touched my heart, even if I am not into the us and them scenarios, as we all have faults or err at times. Believing doesn’t make a person more special than that of any another. It rains on the just and unjust alike. Perhaps, that’s just my opinion, but I stand by it. However, let me ask you a question: Is it not time for you to enjoy some of that sunshine, or for you to learn how to dance in the rains of life through love and forgiveness? Beating yourself up, over and over again isn’t going to change a thing, nor is it going to turn back the clock. Did it ever occur to you that her death had nothing to do with your heart’s desire?
Don’t put the blame for her death on God; it’s merely a part of this life. Sometimes, **** happens. As for how things have an effect, just be thankful that you have a consciousness. It is that which corrects and guides us with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. And love will never fail to turn things around. And if, it appears impossible for you, then, let the Spirit take over, instead of using your mind to control your feelings.
Peace, be with you.
Better said than I could hope to, but I echo your benediction.
God certainly loves. But unless one is willing to say God is not just, one cannot claim God is all love to the exclusion of everything else. God IS love, but He is also just. God has shown His anger toward men. And God has shown His mercy as well. God does hear our prayers, but He frequently is only listening to our prayer of repentance.
Warden, it is THIS perception where I think you have gone wrong. Real justice proceeds from love and does everything that is possible to restore the wrongdoer and the harm done. Revenge is NOT justice.
I was thinking about the annihilation of everyone on Earth except for 8 people.... God wasn't messing around. But Noah invited more people to help him. It took 120 years for him to build that boat cuz rain was coming 'cept it had never rained before. They thought he was crazy... till it was too late, I guess.
Warden, it is THIS perception where I think you have gone wrong. Real justice proceeds from love and does everything that is possible to restore the wrongdoer and the harm done. Revenge is NOT justice.
Amen, nate! Excellent explanation. Human justice is hardly that. It has too much revenge and punishment in it.
Safe in the magic of my woods
I lay, and watched the dying light.
Faint in the pale high solitudes,
And washed with rain and veiled by night,
Silver and blue and green were showing.
And the dark woods grew darker still;
And birds were hushed; and peace was growing;
And quietness crept up the hill;
And no wind was blowing
And I knew
That this was the hour of knowing
And the night and the woods and you
Were one together, and I should find
Soon in the silence the hidden key
Of all that had hurt and puzzled me--- Why you were you, and the night was kind, And the woods were part of the heart of me.
And there I waited breathlessly,
Alone; and slowly the holy three,
The three that I loved, together grew
One, in the hour of knowing...
____________________
In Dorothy Sayer's play, The King's Supper, Peter leans close and whispers to John, "John, why does he say we are not all clean?" John answers, "I do not know Peter, but when I look into my heart, I find it full of unswept, dusty corners."
Warden, you've taken a risk, and I applaud you for it, by allowing us to a view of your dusty corners. You're a courageous man, who I mistakenly thought otherwise.
Pastor Al, you and I may disagree on many scriptural issues, but this is a gem of a poem and what I have bolded exactly echoes the sentiments of my own introspection. Others on this thread with whom I have much more in common don't yet get it. That there are MANY facets to God, and it remains puzzling to me why so many who claim His name pull only a few from the darkness of the night, remaining huddled in a room around a candle, instead of walking out the door into the sunlight. That God, out of His HATE for sin and sinners expressed the greatest love that men can ever hope to find.
God is bigger than us all, and salvation is more complicated than we think.
Thank you for sharing the poem. It will become one of my most welcome respites in times of need.
Blessings upon you.
P.S. If you were open to receiving private messages I would have sent you a more personal sincere thanks for this poem and line from the play. You have done a thing for God today and it has been a blessing to me.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-13-2014 at 03:37 PM..
Reason: added postscript
wow i'm on page 6, and still need to read more. I agree that this is a concept of friction among believers.. something so important as understanding the love of God.
Some interesting scriptures..
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The object of hatred is Esau.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God's love is available / accessible to all the world through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
In context in the book of Romans Paul is talking about those that have been justified already by their Faith in Jesus Christ. God saved us as sinners, but He tells us more...
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Jesus the sinless lamb of God was judged as a sinner. The OBJECT of God's Wrath is the SINNER. Those Justified by Jesus Christ have been Saved in the substitutionary death sacrifice and thus are "passed over" in Judgment.
For all else.. the wrath of God abides on THEM. As a "sinner". THEY will be the object of God's Wrath for not receiving God's pardon for salvation through His Son as their substitute.
So God DOES hate the SINNER (who sins), but in His love He's offered a free pardon for those that are enemies of His to be received through Christ as His Son in Christ being able to receive His love.
For one that receives Christ as Savior, there is a clear warning/exhortation to abide in Christ's commandments to abide (ie continue in) His love. Also there is a clear warning that if we in love with what the world is in love with and no change to what motivates us (ie a new creation in Christ) than the love of the Father is NOT in them.
So yes God does love us and is calling all sinners to repentance. Those that receiving Christ and respond accordingly will be recipients of His love (which is amazing btw). Those that reject Christ are hated by God and will deserve the just penalty for their rejection of His Son.. Eternal Damnation.
The good news is that God has given us a free pardon to receive God's love for any that come to Jesus Christ.
Yes there is a condition to be loved of God.. receiving Christ. the Bible makes it clear no one has received Christ that wasn't an enemy of God's directly prior to conversion.
Others on this thread with whom I have much more in common don't yet get it. That there are MANY facets to God, and it remains puzzling to me why so many who claim His name pull only a few from the darkness of the night, remaining huddled in a room around a candle, instead of walking out the door into the sunlight.
We get why you remain in the darkness of fear, Warden . . . but it is YOU who needs to come out in the sunlight of God's PURE love. PURE love casts out all fear and leaves no room for HATE.
Quote:
That God, out of His HATE for sin and sinners expressed the greatest love that men can ever hope to find.
God did not express His LOVE through HATE . . . that is preposterous. He expressed His love through ultimate tolerance of our ancestors' sinful savagery and barbarity toward His message of love and His Son the messenger who brought it to the barbarians. Jesus smote no one and loved even His torturers and murderers . . . how is that in any way a sign of HATE???? Come out from the Babylon of the OT ignorance, Warden . . . they knew not what they did because they knew not God or His Son.
Warden, my friend, your story touched my heart, even if I am not into the us and them scenarios, as we all have faults or err at times. Believing doesn’t make a person more special than that of any another. It rains on the just and unjust alike. Perhaps, that’s just my opinion, but I stand by it. However, let me ask you a question: Is it not time for you to enjoy some of that sunshine, or for you to learn how to dance in the rains of life through love and forgiveness? Beating yourself up, over and over again isn’t going to change a thing, nor is it going to turn back the clock. Did it ever occur to you that her death had nothing to do with your heart’s desire?
Don’t put the blame for her death on God; it’s merely a part of this life. Sometimes, **** happens. As for how things have an effect, just be thankful that you have a consciousness. It is that which corrects and guides us with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. And love will never fail to turn things around. And if, it appears impossible for you, then, let the Spirit take over, instead of using your mind to control your feelings.
Peace, be with you.
I don't blame God. I blame myself. I am the sinner who with full knowledge of God's hate for sin proceeded anyway.
The incident changed forever how I interact with people who have their own dark pits. I don't use a hammer on them. On the other hand, it has made me less tolerant of those who use hammers on other sinners. They haven't been looking at their own dusty corners.
What none of you are seeing is the GOOD that can come of God's righteous hatred. You are mixing up the hatred you sometimes feel toward something or someone with God's righteous hatred which not many of you see. God has a RIGHTEOUS and JUST hatred of sin and sinners. He provides out of the greatest of all love the path to walk out from under the hammer that will fall on all sin and sinners. It is through Jesus Christ. Not just about professing Christ with that one time prayer crap, but about being IN Christ. Not merely an acceptance of Christ as a role model, but acceptance of Jesus as Lord at the innermost part of our being.
Many claim to be on God's side. But the real question is whether or not God is on YOUR side.
Until you have a "meet the Mack truck in the middle of the road" experience with God, you will never understand the true power that can be in the center of your life. There is no easing your way into life with God. Being born again involves spiritual travail, just as it does in real life. Don't think for a moment that the spiritual travail for the one being born again is anywhere near the spiritual travail of God the Father in giving birth to us with the sacrifice of His Son.
I don't blame God. I blame myself. I am the sinner who with full knowledge of God's hate for sin proceeded anyway.
The incident changed forever how I interact with people who have their own dark pits. I don't use a hammer on them. On the other hand, it has made me less tolerant of those who use hammers on other sinners. They haven't been looking at their own dusty corners.
What none of you are seeing is the GOOD that can come of God's righteous hatred. You are mixing up the hatred you sometimes feel toward something or someone with God's righteous hatred which not many of you see. God has a RIGHTEOUS and JUST hatred of sin and sinners. He provides out of the greatest of all love the path to walk out from under the hammer that will fall on all sin and sinners. It is through Jesus Christ. Not just about professing Christ with that one time prayer crap, but about being IN Christ. Not merely an acceptance of Christ as a role model, but acceptance of Jesus as Lord at the innermost part of our being.
Many claim to be on God's side. But the real question is whether or not God is on YOUR side.
Until you have a "meet the Mack truck in the middle of the road" experience with God, you will never understand the true power that can be in the center of your life. There is no easing your way into life with God. Being born again involves spiritual travail, just as it does in real life. Don't think for a moment that the spiritual travail for the one being born again is anywhere near the spiritual travail of God the Father in giving birth to us with the sacrifice of His Son.
Yes, God's justice, hatred, vengeance, etc is righteous and not like man's at all. God never does anything that isn't.
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