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Actually I think we are further apart than I had realized, and I think there is also a huge gap among those who call themselves universalists. Some believe Jesus died for our sins, while others believe such view is vile and barbaric.
Yes, Finn, unfortunately the term 'universalist mainly applies to the belief of everyone eventually will be redeemed. The term itself does nothing to explain how we reach that point, and there are those that believe in Jesus' atoning death, like me, and there are those that don't. I would be hard pressed to come up with a chart of how many fall into each category, but there ARE numerous believers in Jesus' sacrifice.
As usual you misrepresent to cause discord and dissension among the brethren. We believe Christ died for (because of) our sins. You believe it was a mandatory blood sacrifice to appease a vengeful God. That second part is what is the result of our ancestors' childish primitive thinking and it IS barbaric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Actually Christ died for BOTH reasons. See post #226.
Failure to see the dichotomy in God--is failure to see God in His fullness.
The dichotomy that you see in God is entirely the result of the dichotomy in humanity . . . our animal nature and our Spirit. God is all Spirit and there is no such dichotomy in Him. It is our animal nature that demands revenge, gets angry, hates, gets jealous, and all the "sins" we are heir to, Warden. God has NONE.
Yes, Finn, unfortunately the term 'universalist mainly applies to the belief of everyone eventually will be redeemed. The term itself does nothing to explain how we reach that point, and there are those that believe in Jesus' atoning death, like me, and there are those that don't. I would be hard pressed to come up with a chart of how many fall into each category, but there ARE numerous believers in Jesus' sacrifice.
That sacrifice is very important, but many universalists do not seem to see it as a sacrifice. Some say it was planned by God as a sacrifice, some say it was not planned at all, and some say it was planned, but not as a sacrifice.
If you say He died FOR our sins, then you share the belief which you call "vile". I am getting a lot of contradicting views from you, so it is hard to say what you really believe.
Finn, it is not Mystic you are getting contradictory views from, it is your own failure to understand the perceptions explained to you and your need to force what has been explained into a box not made for those perceptions.
Yes, Finn, unfortunately the term 'universalist mainly applies to the belief of everyone eventually will be redeemed. The term itself does nothing to explain how we reach that point, and there are those that believe in Jesus' atoning death, like me, and there are those that don't. I would be hard pressed to come up with a chart of how many fall into each category, but there ARE numerous believers in Jesus' sacrifice.
Amen, Trumpet . . . we all agree it was a horrendous undeserved sacrifice of an innocent and pure human life to the barbarity of our ancestors. We all agree that God and Jesus knew it would happen. Some of us agree that it is part of a plan to teach us about God. Why it happened and what it means is where the disagreements happen. What you believe is the true character of God and His motives determines what you think it means.
The dichotomy that you see in God is entirely the result of the dichotomy in humanity . . . our animal nature and our Spirit. God is all Spirit and there is no such dichotomy in Him. It is our animal nature that demands revenge, gets angry, hates, gets jealous, and all the "sins" we are heir to, Warden. God has NONE.
What animals get angry or demand revenge, or hates in the classical sense? They certainly kill for food or kill for protection, as does the human animal.
But the nature you refer to as "animal," comes directly from the God who created man in His own image. How we USE that nature is the difference between sin and righteousness----and which God taught us how to recognize.
Since you HAVE those emotions, did God not make you with them? Or was this a self-created nature--which all of us happen to have developed without even trying?
It came from God--as did all things.
God is more complex than the condensed version you would boil Him down into.
Finn, it is not Mystic you are getting contradictory views from, it is your own failure to understand the perceptions explained to you and your need to force what has been explained into a box not made for those perceptions.
No. I ask questions to get e clearer understanding, and when those questions go unanswered, as they often do, then what am I supposed to think other than people are not quite sure what they believe. You, for example, said Jesus death was not a planned sacrifice, but happened to set an example. If it was not planned, then it must have been an accident, and therefore really not a sacrifice. It's like if your dog gets ran over by a car by accident, you later declare it was a sacrifice. Does that make sense to you?
The dichotomy that you see in God is entirely the result of the dichotomy in humanity . . . our animal nature and our Spirit. God is all Spirit and there is no such dichotomy in Him. It is our animal nature that demands revenge, gets angry, hates, gets jealous, and all the "sins" we are heir to, Warden. God has NONE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
What animals get angry or demand revenge, or hates in the classical sense? They certainly kill for food or kill for protection, as does the human animal.
But the nature you refer to as "animal," comes directly from the God who created man in His own image. How we USE that nature is the difference between sin and righteousness----and which God taught us how to recognize.
Since you HAVE those emotions, did God not make you with them? Or was this a self-created nature--which all of us happen to have developed without even trying?
I can see that my efforts to educate you about the origin of those emotions fell on the deaf ears of a guilt-ridden Spirit. I am sorry I could not reach you, brother.
Quote:
It came from God--as did all things.
God is more complex than the condensed version you would boil Him down into.
God does NOT Will everything that happens. That is primitive thinking inherited from our ignorant ancestors.
Failure to see the dichotomy in God--is failure to see God in His fullness.
How do you know it isn't you who has failed to see God correctly?
Last edited by DewDropInn; 08-03-2014 at 03:15 PM..
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