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Firstly, it sounds like you mean 1 Timothy 4:10: For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Is this the case?
At any rate, the citation you gave from Paul does not contradict this verse....
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Now, you can choose to believe your own interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10, but you have to reconcile it with this.
And remember. Paul did not have a NT canon to read, did not hear the teachings of Jesus in life on Earth that we know of, did not sit under any teachers that we can investigate, as far as i know. He never read the Book of Revelation most likely. And most likely, being an ultra-orthodox Pharisee, he was familiar with all the Jewish thoughts on the subject and nature of the afterlife. He most likely towed the Pharisee line all the way down the line, including the concept of She'ol and eternal damnation or annihalation of the wicked.
It doesn't sound like he changed much in that regard after he became a Messianic Jew
Please at least take the time to read the link I took the trouble to post for you. Talbot can explain Paul's teaching on UR mush better than I can and it is a good article explaining Paul's teachings on the subject.
I'd like to point out I never called you a heretic. I said some of your assertions were heretical. But then again, Paul said Peter was acting heretical too, in so many words. And the Bible never said the sea was on fire either - but then again, the Bible doesn't assert that She'ol is an actual physical place filled with fire either on land or in the ocean.
If the assertions one makes are heretical, then the assertor must be a heretic. I haven't called you names nor have I called your assertions heretical. I don't believe in such cheap shots among Christians myself.
Please at least take the time to read the link I took the trouble to post for you. Talbot can explain Paul's teaching on UR mush better than I can and it is a good article explaining Paul's teachings on the subject.
Well I hadn't planned to read it immediately. I saved it to my hard drive for later. I'll give it a read right now, and give you my opinion of it.
I can offer one concession to UR, and that's the fact that Rev 20 does seem to leave the question of ETERNAL punishment for the wicked a little open. It speaks of eternal destruction for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, whereas the Devil, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are specifically cited as receiving eternal torment. And BTW, this fact alone annuls the doctrine of UR without some mitigation from it's proponents, at least in the case of the two humans if not the fallen angel too.
So, i don't believe in universal salvation. But I am open to the idea of eternal annihilation for those participant in the second resurrection.
If the assertions one makes are heretical, then the assertor must be a heretic. I haven't called you names nor have I called your assertions heretical. I don't believe in such cheap shots among Christians myself.
Not necessarily. I believe one has to deny the fundamentals of the faith as described in scripture as of the antichrist spirit, in order to be a heretic. But you can still have views that are heretical in and of themselves.
Not necessarily. I believe one has to deny the fundamentals of the faith as described in scripture as of the antichrist spirit, in order to be a heretic. But you can still have views that are heretical in and of themselves.
Well, let's put it this way. When I read your first correspondence to me, I was insulted and your respect level meter fell to zero. It is hard indeed to retract once something has gone forth from one's mouth. I don't go in for such obvious and intentional slandering of my brothers and sisters in Christ, even when I disagree with them.
Well I hadn't planned to read it immediately. I saved it to my hard drive for later. I'll give it a read right now, and give you my opinion of it.
I can offer one concession to UR, and that's the fact that Rev 20 does seem to leave the question of ETERNAL punishment for the wicked a little open. It speaks of eternal destruction for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, whereas the Devil, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are specifically cited as receiving eternal torment. And BTW, this fact alone annuls the doctrine of UR without some mitigation from it's proponents, at least in the case of the two humans if not the fallen angel too.
So, i don't believe in universal salvation. But I am open to the idea of eternal annihilation for those participant in the second resurrection.
The difference is that the UR folks have reconciled the scriptures and you haven't. We accept all the punishing and chastising and anger of our Lord. We also accept all His love and the overall message of the Bible which speaks toward the reconciliation of all things ending with Christ's ultimate triumph when death and the grave are finally destroyed and all things are in subjection to Him. Then Christ turns it back over to God and places his own self in subjection to God the Father.
You need to open your mind and soften your heart and pray for your eyes to be opened. Then you will be able to reconcile those scriptures which you find in conflict or in dispute with other scriptures and see the overall wonderful and ingenious plan of God.
The difference is that the UR folks have reconciled the scriptures and you
haven't. We accept all the punishing and chastising and anger of our Lord. We
also accept all His love and the overall message of the Bible which speaks
toward the reconciliation of all things ending with Christ's ultimate triumph
when death and the grave are finally destroyed and all things are in subjection
to Him. Then Christ turns it back over to God and places his own self in
subjection to God the Father.
Biblical Universalists believe this, Unconcerned, but not all who believe in UR. God bless.
Biblical Universalists believe this, Unconcerned, but not all who believe in UR. God bless.
I am tempted to coin a new word to mirror Bibleianist . . . perhaps Bibleversalist. j/k Clearly those who try to reconcile the irreconcilable contradictions in the Bible in ANY version of fundamentalism represent a different group of Christians from those who do not revere the Bible as the 100% inerrant word of God and instead revere Christ alone as the Living Word of God who abides with us. God bless.
I think a very key thing here, is where you say "If we don't have at least a prospect for hell, then sin doesn't matter." Why do you think this? WHy do you think that there needs to be a threat of torture, in order for sin to matter? You also said there is nothing we have done that separates us from God's love, yet you turn around and say "BUT..." "But we have TO... ACCEPT God's love.." You just cancelled out "nothing separates us from God's love" with your "BUT.. you HAVE TO.."
Don't ya see?
peace,
sparrow
Okay, to answer your questions:
1. When I said sin doesn't matter if there is no prospect of hell, it's not because of a threat of torture, but rather because sin has consequences. Anybody who is worried that they might not go to heaven because they aren't "good enough" are, in fact, following the prompting of the Holy Spirit and I would wager to say that they're saved. But if there was no prospect of hell, this would mean the following:
-Try to do good works in the world: go to heaven
-Do as much evil as you can in the world: go to heaven
-Work for social justice: go to heaven
-Work for selfish gain: go to heaven
-Love your neighbors, even those whom you disagree: go to heaven
-Treat your neighbors with disdain and cause them pain: go to heaven
-Believe in God and Jesus: go to heaven
-Have doubts of belief in God and Jesus: go to heaven
-Specifically reject believing in God and Jesus due to your own pride: go to heaven
-Worship money, Baal, golden calves, sex, etc.: go to heaven
As you can see, this would render sin meaningless. God is grieved by hatred, injustice, unloving acts, and the like. But in the above scenario, people who follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit are treated equally to those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. And that's just not right. Plus, there are a bunch of Bible verses and parables that Jesus Himself spoke that indicated that some people would go to a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Therefore, I personally must reject hard universalism. I'm open to soft universalism, but there needs to be some level of accountability and repentance.
2. God still loves people who reject Him, but He wants fellowship with his followers. Those who refuse the invitation aren't going to have a relationship with God because they choose not to.
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j/k Clearly those who try to reconcile the irreconcilable contradictions in the Bible in ANY version of fundamentalism represent a different group of Christians from those who do not revere the Bible as the 100% inerrant word of God and instead revere Christ alone as the Living Word of God who abides with us. God bless.
