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You still have not said anything that he's said that is unscriptural. Just because he will not talk about what is important to you does not make him a false teacher. Do you realize the message announced was one of good will and peace to all men, which is the cause of repentance, it wasn't one of you no good sinners judgement is upon you unless you repent, that was solely for those who thought that way, John called them a brood of vipers , Jesus called them white washed tombs and children of hell.
What are your questions, i will gladly answer them.
As a rule i do not listen to anyone preach on tv or the radio, i have heard Joel preach probably 5 times on tv , i do not own any of his books, i do not own a single book, video or cd by any so called prosperity teacher.
1. Yes, I have mentioned what he said that's unscriptural. You do not have eyes to see it.
2. What's important to me? Wow. Just, wow. The salvation of the lost through repentance of sin and a life in Christ is pretty important to God, too. Given this statement of your's, it's very clear what's important to you.
3. In another post you ask what points and questions I have for you to address. I will not repeat them. Several of them have been repeated twice already.
4. Once again, and for the final time, you have every right to follow Joel Osteen and his message of wealth. I have warned you, and shown you scripture after scripture after scripture of why he's a false teacher and how seeking after wealth is not biblical. It's up to you to have the eyes to see it. Any further discussion of it, especially since you've disregarded everything I've said, is fruitless.
I pray that your eyes are opened before it's too late. I truly, truly do.
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I have a problem with spirituality costing money. ("but they need a huge building to house all of these people so the message can be shared!") I disagree with the whole concept:
People always seem to be afraid of others leading others astray...But why can't people learn to take responsibility for theirselves and what THEY take in, and what they discard? Seek truth. Folks should probably stop looking to be "led" and thinking that others have more "spiritual authority" than they do. Have they lived YOUR life? No. We're all different. God speaks to us all. We do NOT need "spiritual leaders" to show us the way. Sharing our paths with each other and learning from each other is key. We're all in this together, the same, learning.
just my thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
If we disagree...who is right? Can we both be right? How do we know?
Yes, it is actually possible for two people to disagree but be "right" at the same time (on some things).
It's a matter of perspective. What is true for me right now on my path, may not be true for you on your path at this moment. Like I said before, TRUTH remains. Truth is steadfast. Truth itself does NOT change. It's our perspective. For example, a person may say "Loving your enemies is just too difficult. It seems impossible". Another person may have gone through some refining in their lives and they have come to a point where they know that it is DEFINITELY NOT impossible to love their enemies and it is actually not as difficult as it once seemed to be.
Both are right. For the person who has not gone through some refining (and "heart surgery") it IS difficult, and seemingly impossible. For the person who has, it IS possible and not so difficult. Both have different perspectives. They can learn from each other.
Truth remains. "God is love" This truth is steadfast. Though our understanding goes through a metamorphosis as the wisdom in this truth is slowly revealed within and to us. Some mock those who speak continuously of "God is love" as much as possible, thinking that "love is weak and fiery justice and damnation is strength" while yet others have come to a place (literally life-changing) where they see the profound beauty and power in the statement "God is love." Those who mock or call others "hippies" or what have you, just do not YET have the perspective that the other person has. Again, we learn from each other. We're all at different points on our paths. It is a personal journey, as well as one we share with the whole.
Remember.. God will be ALL in ALL. It's a beautiful thought. Though we walk in confusion together....and struggle and seek truth.. one day, God will be ALL in ALL. There is no fear of "getting it wrong". We learn through our mistakes. We grow and mature. We are all His beloved children.
1. Yes, I have mentioned what he said that's unscriptural. You do not have eyes to see it.
2. What's important to me? Wow. Just, wow. The salvation of the lost through repentance of sin and a life in Christ is pretty important to God, too. Given this statement of your's, it's very clear what's important to you.
3. In another post you ask what points and questions I have for you to address. I will not repeat them. Several of them have been repeated twice already.
4. Once again, and for the final time, you have every right to follow Joel Osteen and his message of wealth. I have warned you, and shown you scripture after scripture after scripture of why he's a false teacher and how seeking after wealth is not biblical. It's up to you to have the eyes to see it. Any further discussion of it, especially since you've disregarded everything I've said, is fruitless.
I pray that your eyes are opened before it's too late. I truly, truly do.
Hang on, just because you believe the lost are going to hell and he doesn't, does not mean that the lost are any less important to him. Orthodox Christianity has no idea how to show the way of repentance that those who do repent according to its version of repentance actually are able to live out lives of righteousness. Stopping doing what you did before you became a Christian IS NOT repentance, living in righteousness IS. Banging on about how sinful the world is does not bring repentance, the scriptures tell us it is the revealed goodness of God that causes us to repent. We don't do this that or the other no more no we are Christians, well what do you do instead?, go to church and read my bible, you think you are any different to the unbeliever because you go to church and read your bible?, the world is not falling for it and neither am i. The world as yet to see the church live by faith never mind in righteousness.
Let me just say this again to you, I do not listen to Joel. own any of his material, but I do believe in spite of what he may have wrong, fundamental Christianity does not come close to what he's got. If you haven't noticed I am defending him from the very thing you said you are not doing. I hope he very much continues in what he's doing, because he is doing a great job of bringing the worst out of those that oppose him. Like you said, by their fruit you shall know them. Your veiled threats are really your own fears betraying you.
Luke 12:15, "And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."
1 Timothy 6:10, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs."
Luke 16:13, "No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
Philippians 4:19, "And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus." (Seek God. He's your Source. Not riches. He supplies all of your needs.)
Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Luke 18:22-26, "When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?"
--- These are Jesus' words to the man who followed the commandments but was attached to riches and his money.
Proverbs 23:4-5, "Do not weary yourself to gain wealth, cease from your consideration of it. When you set your eyes on it, it is gone. For wealth certainly makes itself wings like an eagle that flies toward the heavens."
These are just a few of scriptures teachings about wealth. It contains many warnings about pursuing it, holding on to it, depending on it, becoming a slave to it, and how it affects people's motives.
The Bible mentions many things that Christians should seek (to be holy, God alone, wisdom, the good of others and not ourselves, truth, etc.,) but it never says to seek riches. It warns against it and the dangers of it.
Are you speaking against wealth here ?, and have you sold all your possessions yet?. Let me tell you this, i know some beautiful people some believers and some not who or not are not slaves to wealth, in fact they are all very generous. If you believe in scraping by and that you are a victim of circumstances rather than a victim of your own unbelief then be my guest. There is one thing for sure your nets will never be teeming with fish, you will continue to plead(beg) with God to answer you in prayer rather than having faith that when you call upon him he hears you and responds to you. The truth is those who trust and have faith in God have a bank they draw from within, where do you think what Peter and John gave to the lame beggar came from?, yes from what they both believed God had deposited within them..........heaven itself. This is what Joel Osteen is saying, it just doesn't come out in the bible language you have grown accustomed to, so it is alien to you and therefore false. He is not saying seek big houses, cars, yachts and big bank balances, he is saying seek the source of of life and your life being richer for it will be a blessing to those around you. But your average bible believer who thinks the heart of everyone even their own is desperately wicked, they automatically think anything which could be considered a blessing will be mishandled, again betraying their own short comings and not those you assume others have.
Actually you just made the case for the Catholic faith. Wonder why the Church is hated in modern times? They follow what Christ said and are not changing it to be happy, clappy. Most Christian religions now want to follow what man says and not what Christ said. They want to say what Christ said is old fashioned and does not work in our modern world. The Church says we can't change what Christ said and are hated for it.
Janelle, I have all the respect in the world for you. The reason I didn't just make the case for the RCC is that I don't believe in either of those things.
1.) I believe that the scriptural canon should be open until God explicitly closes it. I seriously doubt that God ever would since he repeatedly tells us that he never changes. Closure of the scriptural canon would represent a pretty huge change on God's part. End of the day, no matter what God always has the right to reveal more scripture if/when he chooses. I cannot fathom why anyone would believe he can't or won't.
2.) I believe in an informal Trinity. I do believe there are three (which is all the word "trinity" implies.) I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But I do not accept the highly formalized version set forth by the early Church in the councils from 300 AD - 500 AD. I believe that if Godhead wanted to offer up a clear and concise explanation of their nature and relationship to one another, that would have come via direct revelation from God. The early Catholic Church did not receive direct revelation. They never claimed to. They debated, theorized, offered up best guesses and eventually voted on it with the majority determining absolute truth. Such a formulation for determining absolute truth makes no sense. That would be like expecting Congress to always get everything right ... and we all know that many Ecumenical Councils are acknowledged to have gotten many things wrong.
I may not have made the case for myself to accept the RCC. You are quite right that I have made the case for a lot of Protestants. Anyone who holds up a closed scriptural canon and the formal Trinity as prerequisites for calling oneself a Christian has essentially -- albeit inadvertently -- acknowledged that Catholicism is the one true church.
Considering how much those very same Protestants dislike Catholicism, I find that absolutely hilarious.
As one who has attended his services on a few occasions, I can say that the environment is much more worshipful than it appears on TV. I notice the myriad of people who probably would never attend a "normal" church, go and worship there... handicapped, bikers, people in flip-flops - just all types of people. They have Bible studies during the week and a Spanish worship service there. They do share the gospel in their services.
One of the younger guys who goes to my church attends a local Bible college - and said there are many people who attend that attend Osteen's church. Now you can say - 'see, that's because He isn't teaching the Bible.' I say God is using Him as a gateway for people to get started with Christ, and maybe grow elsewhere.
I am not saying I believe everything he says - heck - no one is 100% correct. But He does preach Christ (very lightly), and God can use Him to further the walk of many people. He can preach a message and each person in that audience could get something totally different depending on what God wants them to hear.
Janelle, I have all the respect in the world for you. The reason I didn't just make the case for the RCC is that I don't believe in either of those things.
1.) I believe that the scriptural canon should be open until God explicitly closes it. I seriously doubt that God ever would since he repeatedly tells us that he never changes. Closure of the scriptural canon would represent a pretty huge change on God's part. End of the day, no matter what God always has the right to reveal more scripture if/when he chooses. I cannot fathom why anyone would believe he can't or won't.
2.) I believe in an informal Trinity. I do believe there are three (which is all the word "trinity" implies.) I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But I do not accept the highly formalized version set forth by the early Church in the councils from 300 AD - 500 AD. I believe that if Godhead wanted to offer up a clear and concise explanation of their nature and relationship to one another, that would have come via direct revelation from God. The early Catholic Church did not receive direct revelation. They never claimed to. They debated, theorized, offered up best guesses and eventually voted on it with the majority determining absolute truth. Such a formulation for determining absolute truth makes no sense. That would be like expecting Congress to always get everything right ... and we all know that many Ecumenical Councils are acknowledged to have gotten many things wrong.
I may not have made the case for myself to accept the RCC. You are quite right that I have made the case for a lot of Protestants. Anyone who holds up a closed scriptural canon and the formal Trinity as prerequisites for calling oneself a Christian has essentially -- albeit inadvertently -- acknowledged that Catholicism is the one true church.
Considering how much those very same Protestants dislike Catholicism, I find that absolutely hilarious.
You mean God will, in the future, reveal much more scripture to us that we don't know about now? Why would God do that? Jesus sent down the Holy Spirit to the early Church. If you don't believe God revealed His truths to us than we are living a lie. That makes no sense.
You mean God will, in the future, reveal much more scripture to us that we don't know about now? Why would God do that? Jesus sent down the Holy Spirit to the early Church. If you don't believe God revealed His truths to us than we are living a lie. That makes no sense.
Do you honestly believe that the Holy Spirit hasn't been around since the beginning? Do you think having the Holy Spirit around is a strictly post-resurrection event? I see no reason to believe that there has been any significant change in Father, Son and Holy Spirit operate since before the beginning of planet earth. The Holy Spirit is co-eternal with the Father and Son. Do you envision a reality where the person of the HS just sat by and did nothing? Was he waiting for an eternal duration for his cue so he could finally start doing something?
God revealed his truths to us. A finite number of truths are contained within accepted scripture. That comes with an endless number of ways to interpret, twist and turn those truths. If I say God once spoke and can speak again when and where he sees fit, how does that constitute "living a lie"? If he had no need to say anything else then every insanely corrupt Pope or other significant Catholic leader simply would not have happened. All of the mistakes that the RCC now acknowledges as mistakes couldn't have ever happened either. If God was 100% clear, leaving no room for misunderstanding, the Church would not have fragmented over the centuries, starting right at the outset. There would not be 43,000 denominations. Clearly, more information was needed. Perhaps humankind forgot how to listen?
To me, the doorway to revelation just as bright and powerful and direct as received by Noah, Moses, Gideon, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Elisha, Hosea, Daniel and all the rest remains open. It was never shut. I make no claim to having received revelation on that same level, but if God ever intended abandon as you suggest he has, then I think he would have said so in absolutely clear terms.
You mean God will, in the future, reveal much more scripture to us that we don't know about now? Why would God do that? Jesus sent down the Holy Spirit to the early Church. If you don't believe God revealed His truths to us than we are living a lie. That makes no sense.
What about all the amazing things that Jesus did that all the books in the world could not contain? God is the God of over and beyond, yet we want him limited to a volume of 66 books. Camps now waits for someone to say "show me something spiritual that is not already in the bible", interpreted "show me something i don't already know, because believing in the bible i know everything already"
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