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Originally Posted by mensaguy Is there a body of scholarship that subscribes to this theory, or is this simply your own opinion? I've never heard any Biblical scholar say that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" meant that millions of years passed before the events in the next verse took place. BTW, what I'm asking has nothing to do with how some obscure Greek or Hebrew word is translated or interpreted. Is there any religious organization that supports your unusual view?
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Originally Posted by expatCA
Jehovah's Witnesses for one. They see God creating the heavens and the earth and it taking time. Then when the barren planet was ready for life, God commenced creating life on earth. In fact the angels were created before the physical universe and time as in a 24 hour day did not exist then.
Why do those that quote the bible ad infinitum never give a straight answer to a simple question. No wonder Native American Indians talked about the forked tongue.
tee hee hee. I have always liked this one the best. We see it with our own eyes. Our grandfathers told us about it. Every science teacher I've ever known says it. Most of us would swear to it on our death beds. Yet, the sun has never risen - ever.
It's a lot like the way so many people read the Bible.
My license plate number is WB-4867. Of all the millions of possible plate numbers, what were the odds that I'd wind up with that one?
For the how did This one become the body that's me...
It's not even just a question of odds, it's a question of why?
Because souls are randomly selected? (If yes to this question, THEN we can ask what were the odds).
Because it was predestined that a certain body would be the one that's me pre-written by a higher being?
Or because some branch of science that we have not yet developed an understanding for? (Possibilities: If a certain ingredient is present, then a soul without a body will receive a body as a vassal. That being the soul is born at conception in a womb whose womb will ultimately be your mom. And this is you alive and conscious vs not.... And if that ingredient isn't present....that's another baby that's not your soul and you controlling that body
You are correct that the NT gives the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. The OT also has that same genealogy. That is not in doubt. As far as that being 6,000 years, I don't know. I did the genealogy, but I did not do the years. If the man says it was 6,000 years and nobody disputes his claim, then it could well be 6,000 years.
However, Adam did not begin during the creation. The Bible does not give us a timeline, but it does tell us that Creation was over and done before the time of Adam. It could have been a million years after creation. We just don't know. As well, church teaches that the Creation took 7 days, as we know 7 days to be. Yet, the Bible doesn't say that. From what the Bible tells us, Creation could have been a million years in the making.
As God created the world, He also gave some men the ability to figure out what He did. I believe God created a tree. Science tells us how that tree works. To say that science is wrong because God did not tell how a tree works, is really short-sighted. This earth is very logical in its workings. We should take the science that we have and asked ourselves what is wrong in our thinking about God that makes the discrepancies. We shouldn't take our very limited understanding of God and assume that the fault is science.
If Christians had a better understanding of what they profess, we probably wouldn't be alienating much of the thinking world.
I agree with this. But on the issue of bible there's a lot we do not know. Questions for religious believers
1) How do we know the bible was written by God, as opposed to a team of very intelligent human beings over a long period of time who published it and perfected it in scrolls...or by a prized lineage that exalted their own family line?
2) Who did Cain marry after killing Able if creation was over before Adam?
3) What was the fate of those who died before Jesus came and did not put up a sacrificial lamb for slaughter? Would God really require humans to put an innocent lamb to be slaughtered to determine passage to heaven by casting it on the lamb as paying for our sin? If you do believe this, how do you align your modern day morals on ethical treatment of animals to your sense of good vs evil learned from building a relationship with God from bible study? If not, why do you not discredit that there's no judgment outside of believing Jesus is the last sacrificial lamb? More simply said, how do you believe parts of the bible but not other parts, and then where is the line in the sand?
4) Do you believe the Red Sea really split up and people walked under it? Literally? If yes, why doesn't this stuff happen anymore? If not, why so literally do you take the words of the New Testament concretely?
For the how did This one become the body that's me...
It's not even just a question of odds, it's a question of why?
Because souls are randomly selected? (If yes to this question, THEN we can ask what were the odds).
Because it was predestined that a certain body would be the one that's me pre-written by a higher being?
Or because some branch of science that we have not yet developed an understanding for? (Possibilities: If a certain ingredient is present, then a soul without a body will receive a body as a vassal. That being the soul is born at conception in a womb whose womb will ultimately be your mom. And this is you alive and conscious vs not.... And if that ingredient isn't present....that's another baby that's not your soul and you controlling that body
Are you familiar with the terms DNA, genetics, eggs and spermatozoa?
Originally Posted by TroutDude The ignorance on display in this forum is a striking example of how the US educational system has fallen so far behind most other first world nations.
Sad, silly and pathetic.
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Originally Posted by the_human_being
Originally Posted by the_human_being Have you ever went to one of our colleges, even one of our Bible colleges and seen all the foreign students enrolled?
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Originally Posted by the_human_being
Originally Posted by the_human_being The key here is the word "theoretical". A theory is something unproved by conventional science. A theory is a "guess". A theory is in direct conflict with the very definition of science itself.
Science isn't your only weak subject, is it?
Comprehension isn't very far behind.
It's not the foreign students that are here in this forum posting.
You say that you have a degree in Electrical Engineering???? I don't know what VPI is. hmmm
Sorry, I know you must be feeling really put-upon right now, but when you make a public argument based on an "incorrect theory" (yes, I mean a guess), you can't make a valid point. Interestingly, this whole thread is based on an incorrect theory (and yes, I mean "guess")
I didn't take that much science in college, but I did learn "scientific theory". I took 4 stats classes. It is different than "unscientific theory" which is, as you say, a guess. The two words have very little in common. Please take a moment to look them up. You are writing to Cupper3, but we all are reading you. It really is best on this forum to look things up when you are told numerous times that you are wrong. We're all wrong sometimes. If you are not wrong, then you have the information to prove it. If you are wrong, then just say, "oh, I see what you mean" and pick another strategy for your argument.
I agree with this. But on the issue of bible there's a lot we do not know. Questions for religious believers
1) How do we know the bible was written by God, as opposed to a team of very intelligent human beings over a long period of time who published it and perfected it in scrolls...or by a prized lineage that exalted their own family line?
2) Who did Cain marry after killing Able if creation was over before Adam?
3) What was the fate of those who died before Jesus came and did not put up a sacrificial lamb for slaughter? Would God really require humans to put an innocent lamb to be slaughtered to determine passage to heaven by casting it on the lamb as paying for our sin? If you do believe this, how do you align your modern day morals on ethical treatment of animals to your sense of good vs evil learned from building a relationship with God from bible study? If not, why do you not discredit that there's no judgment outside of believing Jesus is the last sacrificial lamb? More simply said, how do you believe parts of the bible but not other parts, and then where is the line in the sand?
4) Do you believe the Red Sea really split up and people walked under it? Literally? If yes, why doesn't this stuff happen anymore? If not, why so literally do you take the words of the New Testament concretely?
There were too many authors, and being so much time and so many authors, only God could have written it.
Let's assume a team of geniuses put it together.
They had to come up with a language of 3 that shows human and spiritual anatomy, but it is a secret language hidden within all the stories.
For Instance, Shem is Adam's son, not Eve's, and Cain is not Adam's son. There are 3 in the garden and the 3 only represent one being.
The 3 sons represent one being, and Abel was within Cain, Abel was the spiritual son inside the son of flesh.
Noah had 3 sons that represented body, soul, and spirit.
These 3s go on from Genesis to Revelation, they go on even though the authors didn't know the language.
This language of 3 is not just to show 3s, but they are in design where the first born is always going to represent the flesh. We see Jacob inside an animal skin that represented the skin of his brother Esau.
I could write ten pages not only showing these 3s, but showing the same pattern and design in every group of 3s and there are many.
We see Jesus hanging on a cross, we can see the Crossing over, and what our being represents. We are all of us born in this life of flesh first, we raise this son by feeding it and nurturing it, and we can live like kings or live as servants.
But the son of the left hand has to cross through the body and then to become the son of the right hand, and it is this crossing over that the Passover is showing in redeeming the first born, and then the waters having to split and stand on end. But that first Passover only pointed to a second Passover, and the second Passover is only pointing at the third Passover.
All the prophets speak of this third Passover where the whole world goes through the exact same ordeal that Israel went through in crossing over from Egypt.
The sea is within YOU, the waters standing on end is only a warning of when God will come like a thief in the night to those who do not know the times and seasons, and he will break into people houses{Bodies} like a thief because they don't know his visitation days.
God will split YOUR waters if you have not prepared, and that is what it has always shown.
The 3 main feast are just showing the first 3, and every group of 3 that has been. The Passover happens in the outer court of gentiles and it is for flesh as the first is always flesh by pattern and design. Pentecost is for the Soul, and Sukkot is to become a covering yourself in an incorruptible tent.
It doesn't matter what book of the bible you are reading, the 3s run throughout the entire book, and the pattern NEVER tells a lie, it cannot lie. Being
If you took a bunch of scientists and set them down to make known the pattern, they would all have to agree that only God could have written the book and stayed within the lines of a design and pattern where the authors were unaware of such a pattern.
The pattern says that we didn't come from this Earth, but that we were alive before the Earth was even created, and we have come down to this Earth to be put in the skins of an evolved animal.
The pattern says that we are all being trained to be sons of God, and that the sons taken from this Earth will go to millions of other Earth, and they will be born on those Earths as sons of God who brought truth.
The 12 tribes are 12 ribs, and Jesus came to make a new man, and so he picked out another 12 ribs. 12 ribs of Judah, and 12 ribs of Ephraim in 3 sections. 24 divisions of priests within one man, in 3 sections, and these 24 guards the throne room of the Heart, and there are 4 beasts within the heart in the 4 pipes that the spirit runs through, and we choose which beast to interact with other people.
A group of geniuses would have had to design a religion with a Temple that was designed in human anatomy, with a design to show body, soul, and spirit, and to show the difference between these 3, and then write a book showing a group of 3s coming time and time again, over and over where the first born always shows flesh, the second born always shows soul, the third born always shows spirit, and that spirit is a fallen spirit.
The Most beautiful creature
Eve
Adam
Cain
Abel
Seth
Noah's 3 sons
Then came Abraham and his two siblings.
Then came Jacob and his sons were put at the 4 directions of the temple in 4 groups of 3.
Then came Moses and his two siblings.
The land itself is divided in 3 sections and Israel comes down to 3 names being two kingdoms and a city in between.
The Temple in 3 section with 3 main feasts.
Most of all is the fact that everything Jesus said was in parables that he used the language of 3 to speak in, and unless you know the language, you can't know what is said.
Revelation is a book of 3 in itself, and it is not showing the Earth, and hailstorms with plagues, it is showing what is happening within 3 views because it points at what is happening in the seals, and in the trumpets, and in the bowls.
It is an apocalypse that takes place within a people when they move from level to level, through the feast days.
You could prove that only a God could have written the bible if you could show enough of the right people in a scientific way. It is hidden, but it can be shown, and it is shown in all of nature.
I agree with this. But on the issue of bible there's a lot we do not know. Questions for religious believers
1) How do we know the bible was written by God, as opposed to a team of very intelligent human beings over a long period of time who published it and perfected it in scrolls...or by a prized lineage that exalted their own family line?
2) Who did Cain marry after killing Able if creation was over before Adam?
3) What was the fate of those who died before Jesus came and did not put up a sacrificial lamb for slaughter? Would God really require humans to put an innocent lamb to be slaughtered to determine passage to heaven by casting it on the lamb as paying for our sin? If you do believe this, how do you align your modern day morals on ethical treatment of animals to your sense of good vs evil learned from building a relationship with God from bible study? If not, why do you not discredit that there's no judgment outside of believing Jesus is the last sacrificial lamb? More simply said, how do you believe parts of the bible but not other parts, and then where is the line in the sand?
4) Do you believe the Red Sea really split up and people walked under it? Literally? If yes, why doesn't this stuff happen anymore? If not, why so literally do you take the words of the New Testament concretely?
And, I agree with you. I think there is a lot we don't know. I think that the Bible has mistakes, omissions, and out of sequence timelines. I think some things are literal and others are probably not. I think it is greatly flawed. I think too many men's hands have been on it during translations and perhaps, for their own profit. That is why I try not to beat anybody over the head with it. I think many, many of the church teaching are terribly flawed. They have been teaching the same thing in church since my late grandfather was a boy more than 100 years ago. How can they change now? Three and four generations are still sitting in the church pew listening and they are teaching their children what they were taught 100 years ago. How do you get up and stay, "ooops. We got that part wrong." Seminaries are teaching the same things they always have. Most preachers don't know any different and the few who do will tell you right quick (as one told me back in the 60s), that to change stories now would only get them fired. People go to church; they don't read their Bibles. Preachers pluck a random verse here or there and tell the people what it means. If anybody does read for himself, he already has a preset notion of what the Bible is saying. All the Priests and Ministers today who are writing and explaining are just re-hashing what they were taught and what their religion is already teaching. I haven't heard a really new thought from a preacher in all my long life - and I don't expect to. First and foremost, organized religion is a business. McDonald's, Hunt's, and Libby's may be able to offer "new and improved" but organized religion can't. We are caught in a trap we can't get out of.
Let me address your questions. Please know that this is just my opinion from what I have read.
1) I don't think we do. For me, it is the Holy Word. I was born into a Christian family. I don't know anything else. I started reading and questioning when I was 7. For me, it is about what I feel, not so much about the words.
2) According to my reading, Creation ends when the Bible says it ends. Then, sometime later, Adam and Eve come along. I think there was a whole world of people out there, because God created light all over the planet, not just in the spot He was standing. The Bible is a Jewish history book about one family - Jesus'. It follows Adam and Eve from their formation (not creation) down through the generations to the last King of Israel, Solomon, and then on to Jesus. It is set in the Middle East in what we now know as Israel, beginning at the garden of Eden, the "face" of the earth. When Adam and Eve were turned out of the Garden and had their children, there were people all over the planet - including in the area of the Garden. The Bible tells us that when Cain was forced out of his home he went into the land of Nod and knew his wife. The Bible also tells us that Adam and Eve did not have other children at the time. They had Seth later, who was the bloodline for the Biblical family.
3) From my reading, the dead will rise on the day of judgment. Again, we are only dealing with one family. All the laws and commandments and things God demanded, were for this one family and their servants, captives etc. What was the fate of all the other people around the world or even the other Jews, I don't know. The Bible doesn't speak to that that I have found. I assume, they lived and died and that was the end of them. The Bible tells us that God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul. This soul was passed down through the generations to the members of this one family. The rest of the world was like cattle, I guess.
From what I have read, the sacrifices God demanded were used for food for the people. I don't think they were killed for sport. They were killing animals everyday for food - no refrigeration. For the sacrifices, I think they had a ritual and then they ate the kill. Its not any different than us going to the grocery store and buying a pound of hamburger, cooking it up, and saying Grace before we eat it.
4) I don't know. Honestly. I don't think it matters whether it is true or not. Whether it was true or not, it is the message behind it - God is great and powerful; he did deliver His people out of bondage, after all. He will deliver us too, in His own time.
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I think many, many of the church teaching are terribly flawed. They have been teaching the same thing in church since my late grandfather was a boy more than 100 years ago. How can they change now? Three and four generations are still sitting in the church pew listening and they are teaching their children what they were taught 100 years ago. How do you get up and stay, "ooops. We got that part wrong." Seminaries are teaching the same things they always have. Most preachers don't know any different and the few who do will tell you right quick (as one told me back in the 60s), that to change stories now would only get them fired. People go to church; they don't read their Bibles. Preachers pluck a random verse here or there and tell the people what it means. If anybody does read for himself, he already has a preset notion of what the Bible is saying. All the Priests and Ministers today who are writing and explaining are just re-hashing what they were taught and what their religion is already teaching. I haven't heard a really new thought from a preacher in all my long life - and I don't expect to. First and foremost, organized religion is a business. McDonald's, Hunt's, and Libby's may be able to offer "new and improved" but organized religion can't. We are caught in a trap we can't get out of. 