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Doesn't have to be an Atheist, just can't be a doctor without credibility.
I've posted examples with the doctor himself saying it's a miracle, and it was immediately discredited. There is just no way you'll ever accept evidence.
I've posted examples with the doctor himself saying it's a miracle, and it was immediately discredited. There is just no way you'll ever accept evidence.
I'll accept credible evidence that has been documented and evaluated by unbiased sources -- and for what it's worth, I haven't even seen this "evidence"
I'll accept credible evidence that has been documented and evaluated by unbiased sources -- and for what it's worth, I haven't even seen this "evidence"
Two thoughts.
The evidence is a large crow present, a verifiable record of medical issues and Doctor present or the person is taken to one later who verifies the past record and the healing. Marjoe Gortner was known as a successful faith healer until he exposed the fraud he and others were involved in.
I am waiting for a person dead 4 days to be raised or a blind from birth person healed, etc. Then of course evidence it was from God not Satan, who can also cause healing and other miracles to occur.
I'll accept credible evidence that has been documented and evaluated by unbiased sources -- and for what it's worth, I haven't even seen this "evidence"
There is not much that jeffbase40 and I would agree upon. But medical miracles from God, I do believe, having experienced one myself. I was a child asthmatic, and prayer for me by my grandparents church when I was about seven completely cured me. I've never had an attack since.
But here is a more modern miracle--and one I'm sure you will question--but the doctor doesn't--and photos show all.
Doctors aren't much interested in discussing miracles:
Quote:
While researching her book on the role of medicine in determining saints for the Catholic Church, Jacalyn Duffin discovered that medicine and religion are both belief systems. After sifting through more than 1,400 unexplained cures in the Vatican Secret Archives, Jacalyn Duffin still doesn't believe in God, but she does believe in miracles.
"This seems to bother people -- that I am prepared to say that things of wonder happen, and that science doesn't always have an explanation for it," says the hematologist and professor of medical history at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario.
But they get really flummoxed when she says in the next breath that she doesn't believe in God.
Duffin spent 10 years researching her new book, Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints, and Healing in the Modern World, a look at the role of medicine in determining saints for the Catholic Church.
Her colleagues snickered at the project, and some were so dismissive and hostile that she wondered if they might actually be afraid of religion. One told her that miracles were simply not possible. "His position is that there is no god; there is only nature. He said, 'even if a natural explanation is never found, there always will be one out there somewhere.' I suddenly realized that he believes, and believes without evidence.
"And that made me realize that medicine and religion are both belief systems. That, for me, was earthshaking," Duffin said from her home in Kingston. "It enhanced my understanding of religion and respect for it, and it articulated some of my discomfort that I've had for years with ... medicine which really can be very authoritarian."
When doctors don't have the answers, they ignore the problem, dismissing disorders such as chronic fatigue syndrome as something a patient has simply imagined or exaggerated. But if scientists can measure a problem with a blood test or X-ray, they "believe" in it and have confidence they can cure it.
Things like miracles seem to discredit the very foundation of their work.
"And yet nobody ever asks them to call it a miracle," says Duffin. "(The Vatican) just asks them to explain it. They can't explain it but they don't want anyone to think they are endorsing a miracle because then they would be a flake."
There is not much that jeffbase40 and I would agree upon. But medical miracles from God, I do believe, having experienced one myself. I was a child asthmatic, and prayer for me by my grandparents church when I was about seven completely cured me. I've never had an attack since.
But here is a more modern miracle--and one I'm sure you will question--but the doctor doesn't--and photos show all.
Okay so here we go. Someone was inexplicably healed. No one was able to explain this so --> God.
Is that the logic we're working with here?
If you don't want to believe--you won't. As I stated in the original post--
But here is a more modern miracle--and one I'm sure you will question--but the doctor doesn't--and photos show all.
In Isaiah the sixth chapter, Isaiah goes into the Temple of God in Jerusalem and sees God, high and lifted up, with seraphims flying about. He is humbled.
Some decades of years later, Antiochus of Epiphanes rides his horse into the Temple after conquering Israel, and cries out, "I see no god!"
The difference is in the eyes of faith. Some can behold--and others cannot.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-13-2014 at 04:28 PM..
Your mis-perception seems to be that Christianity is synonymous with a varying set of religious ideals and customs, based on human opinions about God (except, perhaps, Muslim, Jew, etc. (??)) While not that unusual, this is probably one of the greatest source of confusion about 'Christianity/'
Instead, Christianity is nothing less than a personal relationship between the true and living God, and a committed believer who is 'born again' in God's Holy Spirit, by God's Grace, through Jesus Christ (by whom our sins are forgiven.) Today, the Bible is the source of what Christians believe and understand about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the truths and ways of God and God’s plan for mankind.
Simply attending a particular church, agreeing with a set of ideals, following certain customs or even declaring one's self a "Christian" are only the 'trappings' and appearance of Christianity. But, those things no more make one a Christian, than working in a bakery makes one a jelly roll.
True Christianity produces a heart and life-changing transformation that is led and empowered by God's indwelling Holy Spirit. It is not simply behaving or talking in a certain way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
jghorton -
Another excellent post -
I should have addressed my last post to you, but it got buried by other posters:
"Thanks for the kind words. What would you consider as being your statement of faith?"
I especially appreciated your statement above: "True Christianity produces a heart and life-changing transformation that is led and empowered by God's indwelling Holy Spirit."
I personally believe that many very sincere protestant ministers tell their congregations that every believer receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe the words of the Apostles in Acts 5:32 which says that god gives the Holy Ghost to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.
A true believer, in my opinion, is one who believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and makes a commitment to be obedient to Him. Those who do not have a commitment to be obedient have no assurance of being given the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus spoke very plainly in Matt.7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How can we claim to be entitled to entering the kingdom of heaven is we have not commited our selves to DOING the will of God?
Thanks for any reply.
Bob
Excellent Christian handslap!
You both couldn't have proved my point better if I payed you.
Isn't it funny that the detractors rarely disagree among themselves as long as the target is Christians. It doesn't matter how wrong you are.
Not so at all, there is a lot of internal disagreement on many topic, even between people who target specific religions or all religions together. The best example of course is Islam and the internet debate that are being had now about whether it is a feux pas to notice differences between religions or see them all as one. I am in the "see, note, and mention those differences" camp myself.
I know your propaganda requires you to pretend we are all some kind of cartel who unify under an anti Christian banner even to the point of ignoring disagreements to fuel that agenda. But the reality simply, as per usual, never seems to match the straw man of atheists and the like you insist on building with every post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Baloney. I will state my opinion often with supporting evidence and the atheists or opponents almost always turn it in a personal direction often starting with negative comments about my level of intelligence or knowledge.
Except that is simply not true. ANd it is doubley not true about my posts to you for example. As I have never ONCE made a personal comment about your intelligence, but instead I address.... usually at great length.... not just what you say but the basis you think you have for saying it. And I explain at equally great length how and why you are wrong.
The result? You simply dodge, ignore and skip over most of my posts. Whinging instead about the users who make it personal (without naming them or show they exist).
So you seem to want it both ways. You want to play the persecuted card when you can, and then ignore the people who do not do this but interact with you in genuine adult mature conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why can't atheists just simply offer a counter argument and leave it at that?
I do. Often. You simply ignore those posts. You claim this is what you want, but when that is what you in fact get, you run away. So why pretend it is what you want at all???
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Well maybe you are the exception, but whenever I post evidence, atheists immediately search for a way to discredit it instead of considering it even for a minute.
Again this is simply not true and this fabricated reality you are trying to construct has so many holes in it that I doubt it is convincing anyone but yourself.
I not only "consider" the arguments you present, I respond to them and their flaws at great length. You simply ignore those posts and skip over them. I guess to maintain the fantasy that no one is considering your arguments requires you to simply and wantonly ignore when they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Well that response doesn't tell me that you like evidence. See how you immediately go to work to find ways to discredit it without even considering the possibility that it was a healing from God.
Of course we consider that possibility. The simply fact is however that you have not offered a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to support that possibility. So the consideration of that possibility does not require much time, effort, or response.
You have to remember that there are innumerable possible explanations to everything you might present. One simply can not consider them all. So while one remains open to all the possibilities, it is only the ones that come with SOME substantiation that require real input of consideration. The God hypothesis lacks this, so consideration is necessarily brief.
What you seem to want is not just consideration but SPECIAL consideration. That is, given the innumerable unsubstantiated possibilities, you want yours treated above those. Which simply is NOT going to happen. At all. Ever.
You seem to want "consider the possibility" to mean "lend the possibility undue credence above others with a similar substantial basis".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I've posted examples with the doctor himself saying it's a miracle, and it was immediately discredited. There is just no way you'll ever accept evidence.
Declaring something as miracle is not "evidence" at all. So why would anyone accept it? Someone declaring something to be a miracle is unsubstantiated assertion. Nothing more. That the person doing so happens to be a doctor is, as you well know already as you have been schooled on this multiple times, simply irrelevant. Unsubstantiated assertion remains unsubstantiated assertion regardless of what letters come before or after your name.
Reference point: Do some inquiry into the Fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority" as it may benefit your arguments somewhat to learn it, understand it, and thus avoid it.
Will non-believers find that video as some kind of evidence that miracles by god can happen because doctors can't explain the sudden healing?
Not for a moment.
Even from nothing more than a layman familiar with RSD, explanation isn't difficult in this case.
The causes of RSD are not known and are mostly diagnosed by inference and process of elimination. of other disorders.
It can be theorized that since onset can follow a trauma and the disorder is neurological that her fall may have corrected whatever the insult to the nerve(s) might have been.
Medical ignorance in 2014 (or whenever that case happened) should not be used as proof of god-healing.
Oh....the vision? If some neurological shock was occurring, the idea of any kind of temporary brain disfunction is not surprising.
Let me repeat.........
Medical ignorance in 2014 (or whenever that case happened) should not be used as proof of god-healing
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