If a Rapture doesnt occur by 2024, will Christians be convinced there is no pre-tribulation rapture? (woman, Messiah)
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Jesus said, "In this world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Jesus' followers have suffered persecution for much of the time since He ascended into heaven. Why do Christians in the West think they are going to escape that?
If you look at the Beatitudes in Matt 5-7, the last one says that you are blessed if men revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil falsely, for my name's sake. This is after He taught "blessed are the poor in spirit," etc. So it is one of many things Jesus taught must be a part of a Christian's "normal." If it is not...is that Christian really salt and light like Jesus called them to be?
Looking forward to Jesus' return, and working until He does!
While it is true that there are trials and tribulations in life, this in no way means that the Church has anything to do with the specific seven year Tribulation which is the final 7 years of Daniel's 70 weeks (of years) prophesy (Daniel 9:24-27) and is called the time of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7. Please read what I said in post #49 if you have not done so. It is a dispensational issue. The Church cannot and will not be on the earth when God pours out His judgment on the unbelieving Gentile nations of the earth, and on Israel for the purpose of bringing the Jews to the realization that Jesus is the Messiah whom they rejected which will prompt them to cry out for Christ to deliver them. The Church will be in heaven during the Tribulation and undergoing the judgment seat of Christ and the marriage of the Lamb. Again, please read post #49.
Jesus said, "In this world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Jesus' followers have suffered persecution for much of the time since He ascended into heaven. Why do Christians in the West think they are going to escape that?
If you look at the Beatitudes in Matt 5-7, the last one says that you are blessed if men revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil falsely, for my name's sake. This is after He taught "blessed are the poor in spirit," etc. So it is one of many things Jesus taught must be a part of a Christian's "normal." If it is not...is that Christian really salt and light like Jesus called them to be?
Looking forward to Jesus' return, and working until He does!
Try keeping the actual feasts of Jesus for one year and tell me how it goes, if you have a friend left, even one.
When the feast of lights comes, put up the lights a month before the feast of Tabernacles and celebrate the birth of Jesus and see what happens.
There is o no cryptic message in the bible. SOme, many believe the "rapture" is our personal death.
When Jesus stated--- some of you here will never taste death--He was not speaking about those standing there personally, they all tasted death. He was speaking to the group called--the little flock( as a whole, but to those personally on earth during the very end of the) last days( Luke 12:32)= rev 14:3)-- during the trib, the very few remaining, Gods word says will be changed in the twinkling of an eye) and go to heaven as spirit beings----as well the great multitude who are brought through Harmageddon may never taste death as well)Proverbs 2:21-22--Matt 24:22
And one must be naive to think that the wars in the last century are any worse than what has taken place in history. Do you think there has never been an evil tyrant that has killed people?
I'm sorry...I just don't see it.
You do realize that the Tribulation is God's judgment, right? You also realize that God's church is not going to face the wrath of God, right? Why would Christians need to go through judgment when they are righteous in God's eyes?
God's people will not face the wrath of God. The World Wars in and of themselves are not the great tribulation but rather a part of it. You are twisting my words to fit your arguement
Tribulation is a two fold work of God. To the Saint it is a means to be purified by looking to God without ceasing ["Overcome"] but to the wicked it is a time of punishment and a call to repent. These two things happen together because God knows how to deliver His own and His own are not appointed to wrath but rather to overcome.
REV 3:18 "I counsel you to buy [The price is one's self live] of Me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eyesalve, that you may see. REV 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
Consider how God brought the ten judgements on Eygpt without harming the Jews.
Here is some of God's judgements against wickedness in every generation:
REV 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. [ My note: This is symbolic of the fact that Satan and his hord blind the minds of the unbeliever lest the Light of the Gospel shine upon them and that they breath the pure "air" of Heaven. The Sun is symbolic of the Healing Power of the Son as noted in the Scriptures.
MAL 4:1 "For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. MAL 4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun [My note: spelled Sun because it is a metaphor for the Son of God ] of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. MAL 4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
REV 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts [My note: these are demon forces] upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
REV 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[My note: this is not talking of the 144 thousand but of all on the earth that have the seal of God. It is written, "We have been sealed by the Holy Spirit." And so it is with all the judgements of God that happen to the wicked but will not happen to the just. Some of the just are killed for the cause of Christ and others are in tribulation for the Lords sake and they will be saved out of all their troubles. The intents of God are everything.]
REV 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
REV 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
If one does not preach according to the Truth then no Power will accompany their words.
The time of Jacobs(Israel)trouble will last approx 7 years with the signing of a covenant with Israel,
(Dan 9:27)And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This event hasn't taken place, yet. Daniels 70th week begins with this signing.
The seventy weaks are not divided up in the way you do it. The seventy weeks of years are straight forward with no break from when Daniel got the message. Here again is what the book of Daniel says.
DAN 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, andto anoint the most Holy."
It was in the 70th week that all took place. Jesus was anointed at the Babtism of John and went forth to save the world. And His cruxifiction for Atonement and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit also took place in the 70th week.
The seventy weaks are not divided up in the way you do it. The seventy weeks of years are straight forward with no break from when Daniel got the message. Here again is what the book of Daniel says.
DAN 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, andto anoint the most Holy."
It was in the 70th week that all took place. Jesus was anointed at the Babtism of John and went forth to save the world. And His cruxifiction for Atonement and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit also took place in the 70th week.
You are misunderstanding 9:27.
No Im not. Where is the EVERLASTING righteousness?The things told to Daniel is very clearly yet to happen. The anointing of the most Holy will take place at the beginning of Christs earthly kingdom and not before when Jesus will sit upon the throne of David,
(Luke 1:32)He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Quote:
The seventy weeks of years are straight forward with no break from when Daniel got the message
We are in-between the 69th/70th week. Had the Jews accepted their messiah the 70th week would have proceeded, but Jesus through His foreknowledge knew the Jews would reject Him making a way for the Gentiles to be saved through faith in the Lord Jesus.
(Rom 11:30)For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
The times we are in now is most commonly called 'the Church Age'. When the Church Age finishes the Church leaves in the rapture and the 70th week proceeds. God will then turn His attention back onto the nation of Israel and the Jews during this time.
If you're truly saved then you will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation. Dont fall for the post-trib lie. They want to take away your crown!
(2Tim 4:8)Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
No Im not. Where is the EVERLASTING righteousness?The things told to Daniel is very clearly yet to happen. The anointing of the most Holy will take place at the beginning of Christs earthly kingdom and not before when Jesus will sit upon the throne of David,
(Luke 1:32)He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
We are in-between the 69th/70th week. Had the Jews accepted their messiah the 70th week would have proceeded, but Jesus through His foreknowledge knew the Jews would reject Him making a way for the Gentiles to be saved through faith in the Lord Jesus.
(Rom 11:30)For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
The times we are in now is most commonly called 'the Church Age'. When the Church Age finishes the Church leaves in the rapture and the 70th week proceeds. God will then turn His attention back onto the nation of Israel and the Jews during this time.
If you're truly saved then you will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation. Dont fall for the post-trib lie. They want to take away your crown!
(2Tim 4:8)Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
God Bless
If you are "Born again" then you have everlasting righteousness. If you have been babtised into Christ, you are growing from one state of Glory to greator state of Glory unless your faith has been in vain. I hope not and remember Mercy on our failings means we retain everlasting Life.
On the other points, I stand by what I have said. Christ will not come in the secret chambers but rather will be seen by all at the last Trumpet call, immetiately after the tribulaton as says the Scripture. There is no pretrip rapture.
The rapture of the Church and the coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation are two entirely different events. The Church has nothing to do with the Tribulation which takes place during Daniel's seventieth week which is the final week of years (seven years) remaining to the age of Israel. The age of Israel was interrupted and the Church-age was inserted in between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week of Daniel's seventieth week prophecy. This is why the Church-age is called an intercalation.
Paul is quite clear in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians that the Church will be raptured before the day of the Lord begins. And the day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation. The day of the Lord is not a particular 24 hour day, but is a period of direct divine judgment which is what the Tribulation is. As early as the breaking of the sixth seal it is proclaimed that 'the great day of their wrath has come.' This refers to the wrath of Him who sits on the throne (God the Father), and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Following is a portion of the commentary regarding the day of the Lord from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.
(3) ''The day of the LORD'' will bring purification and restoration for Israel (cf. Isa. 61:2; Mal. 4:5), but also intense suffering (Zech. 14:1-3).
''The day of the LORD,'' encompasses several specific past ''days'' or events (cf. A.J. Everson, ''The Days of Yahweh,'' Journal of Biblical Literature 93.1974:329-37). These include the destruction of the Northern Kingdom, the Babylonian Exile, Babylon's conquest of Egypt, and the fall of Babylon. These examples of the Lord's intervention in history prefigure that final time period when He will annihilate His enemies on a more universal scale and restore Israel (for a more thorough development of this relationship between history and eschatology, see Isa. 13-27).
And skipping ahead in the Comments on the day of the Lord,
The day of the Lord, however, as other Scriptures show, will include other events:
(1) Before Israel's enemies will be destroyed they will plunder and devastate Israel (Zech. 14:1-2). This will be a time of anguish for Israel (Zeph. 1:7-18; cf. Dan. 12:1. Jesus called this time period (the great Tribulation) a time of ''great distress'' (Matt. 24:21) for the nation.
(2) After the Lord will destroy His enemies (at Messiah's return) the day of the Lord will include a time of blessing for Israel (cf. Obad. 15 with Obad. 21), known as the Millennium.
(3) Then after the Millennium the day of the Lord will also include the destruction of the present heavens and earth and the making of new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:10, 12-13).
Therefore, according to Scripture passages besides those in Joel, ''the day of the Lord'' will be a lengthy time period including both judgment and blessing. It will begin soon after the Rapture and will include the seven-year Tribulation, the return of the Messiah, the Millennium, and the making of the new heavens and new earth. Obviously this contradicts the view of some that at the end of the Great Tribulation the Rapture will occur and the day of the Lord will then begin (see comments on 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Thes. 2:1-12 and the ''Outline of End-Time Events Predicted in the Bible,'' between Ezek. and Dan.). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 1412]
Having established that the day of the Lord will include the Tribulation, you need only read what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 to understand that the rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation begins.
And no, the pre-tribulational rapture is not an offense to anyone except to those who oppose it and for whatever reason think that it is unfair for the Church to be taken off the earth before the Tribulation begins. But the Church will indeed be taken off the earth before the Tribulation begins and is seen in heaven during the Tribulation in Revelation 19:7-8 and identified as the bride of Christ which has been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Paul refers to the Church as the bride of Christ in 2 Cor. 11:2 and Eph. 5:24-32.
I realize that many people simply will not accept the reality of a pre-tribulational rapture, and are even intensely emotional in their opposition to it, but a literal reading of the Scriptures does point to a pre-trib rapture.
First;
The day of the Lord does not include the tribulation... The 'day of the Lord' comes after the tribulation. Compare these two verses closely:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine
Clearly the 'Day of the Lord' is after the tribulation-the sun goes dark and the moon doesn't give its light then Jesus comes (with wrath) so they are separate events. Compare these scriptures for more clarification that they are different events:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earth quake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Clearly the darkness and the stars falling comes after the tribulation and that is when the wrath happens. You are mistaken in your 'studies'...
Also, you cannot use Paul's 'catching up' verse for a 'pre-tribulation' rapture because Jesus does not come 'in the clouds' twice. Jesus only comes 'in the clouds' one time and Paul said we get 'caught up in the clouds to Him', so you cannot use Paul's catching up' verse to support a pre-tribulation 'catching up'....
Second: I see what your main problem is... Here is a quote from you:
"Following is a portion of the commentary regarding the day of the Lord from the Bible Knowledge Commentary".
You are studying the teaching of men my friend...
Third,the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is an offense...Go to any country where Christians are watching their children get their heads cut off in front of them and tell those people not to worry because the church will be 'raptured' soon...
Here is another gem of a quote from you:
"Paul is quite clear in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians that the Church will be raptured before the day of the Lord begins. And the day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation".
By that quote, you are saying that Paul contradicted both Jesus and prophecy...
Finally, Jesus said that the wicked will be taken first from among the just:
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If 'the just' have already been 'raptured', how do the wicked get taken from 'among' them? Are the wicked in Heaven too? No they are not... Jesus said 'let both grow together until the harvest and gather ye FIRST the tares... The 'catching up' happens on the Day of the Lord/Judgment Day. The wicked are taken to be destroyed at the rest are left to be caught up to Jesus..
The 'pre tribulation rapture' theory is a lie of the Devil and those who believe it are deceived.
I hope you haven't bought any of those rapture books or movies, if so, you have become merchandise by some false prophet... Get rid of the teachings of men and just study the scriptures, you will see an entirely different picture of the last days...
Finally, Jesus said that the wicked will be taken first from among the just:
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
TC
That's why he says,'' two men in a field, one taken, the other left behind.''
The disciple asked,'' Where Lord, where are they taken?''
He replies,'' where ever the body is, there the vultures will gather to eat his flesh.''
Paul was just quoting Zechariah 14 when he was showing those who will remain, the righteous remain.
That's why he says,'' two men in a field, one taken, the other left behind.''
The disciple asked,'' Where Lord, where are they taken?''
He replies,'' where ever the body is, there the vultures will gather to eat his flesh.''
Paul was just quoting Zechariah 14 when he was showing those who will remain, the righteous remain.
I noticed at Proverbs 2 vs 21,22 that the ' righteous remain '. No where does it say they ' return ' but they ' remain ' thus there will be No rapture.
The humble living righteous ' sheep'-like ones of Matthew 25 vs 31,32,37 ' remain ' once the haughty ' goats ' are gone, thus the ' sheep ' will be the living foundation people of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's messianic kingdom over earth - Psalm 72 v 8
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