If a Rapture doesnt occur by 2024, will Christians be convinced there is no pre-tribulation rapture? (myth, believers)
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First;
The day of the Lord does not include the tribulation... The 'day of the Lord' comes after the tribulation. Compare these two verses closely:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine
Clearly the 'Day of the Lord' is after the tribulation-the sun goes dark and the moon doesn't give its light then Jesus comes (with wrath) so they are separate events. Compare these scriptures for more clarification that they are different events:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earth quake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Clearly the darkness and the stars falling comes after the tribulation and that is when the wrath happens. You are mistaken in your 'studies'...
Also, you cannot use Paul's 'catching up' verse for a 'pre-tribulation' rapture because Jesus does not come 'in the clouds' twice. Jesus only comes 'in the clouds' one time and Paul said we get 'caught up in the clouds to Him', so you cannot use Paul's catching up' verse to support a pre-tribulation 'catching up'....
Second: I see what your main problem is... Here is a quote from you:
"Following is a portion of the commentary regarding the day of the Lord from the Bible Knowledge Commentary".
You are studying the teaching of men my friend...
Third,the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is an offense...Go to any country where Christians are watching their children get their heads cut off in front of them and tell those people not to worry because the church will be 'raptured' soon...
Here is another gem of a quote from you:
"Paul is quite clear in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians that the Church will be raptured before the day of the Lord begins. And the day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation".
By that quote, you are saying that Paul contradicted both Jesus and prophecy...
Finally, Jesus said that the wicked will be taken first from among the just:
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If 'the just' have already been 'raptured', how do the wicked get taken from 'among' them? Are the wicked in Heaven too? No they are not... Jesus said 'let both grow together until the harvest and gather ye FIRST the tares... The 'catching up' happens on the Day of the Lord/Judgment Day. The wicked are taken to be destroyed at the rest are left to be caught up to Jesus..
The 'pre tribulation rapture' theory is a lie of the Devil and those who believe it are deceived.
I hope you haven't bought any of those rapture books or movies, if so, you have become merchandise by some false prophet... Get rid of the teachings of men and just study the scriptures, you will see an entirely different picture of the last days...
TC
I have already shown in post #49 that the day of the Lord does include the Tribulation. If you don't agree, and you don't, then you don't. People who make such emotional and irrational statements such as the one you made at the bottom of your post - ''The 'pre tribulation rapture' theory is a lie of the Devil and those who believe it are deceived.,' can't be reasoned with.
I noticed at Proverbs 2 vs 21,22 that the ' righteous remain '. No where does it say they ' return ' but they ' remain ' thus there will be No rapture.
The humble living righteous ' sheep'-like ones of Matthew 25 vs 31,32,37 ' remain ' once the haughty ' goats ' are gone, thus the ' sheep ' will be the living foundation people of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's messianic kingdom over earth - Psalm 72 v 8
It will go exactly as a wedding goes, there is in fact a honeymoon, and a banquet after said honeymoon. The groom is betrothed to the bride and he goes off to build a place where the two shall live, and he returns in the night by surprise to whisk away his bride. They enter into the wedding chamber and they consummate the marriage where the blood and water flow leaving evidence of said consummation.
It is my belief that the path to Rosh Hashanah has been hidden all this time but it is currently becoming known and people must reach Rosh Hashanah in order to enter into the marriage chamber.
The ten virgins show a congregation of Jesus because a legal congregation is ten, and half of the congregation are not able to enter into the marriage chamber to consummate the marriage because they did not have an extra vessel that they had filled with oil, and then the foolish virgins are told where to buy the oil and they go out trying to do just that.
On Rosh Hashanah, the day that no man knows but the father, it is Yom Hakeseh, a day that we don't speak of so that the devil cannot know the day, on that day everyone will know where they stand, and you are counted. When you find out where you stand, you have ten days to do good works till Yom Kippur in order to alter what has already been measured, and on Yom Kippur, your name is written in one of 3 books and you are sealed.
So we are looking for a day that on Rosh Hashanah, all the brides are called up, and everyone finds out what their fate is and whether or not they can enter into the chamber in order to consummate the marriage to be given power.
These wise virgins receive the promise and the whole world knows that they receive because they shine, and the world will have ten days{Maybe ten years/maybe just ten days}, but there will simply not be enough time because ten years is not enough time. Buying the oil is only buying the oil of teaching, much time is needed to learn what has been purchased, and we will see the entire globe gathering the wealth of the nations for this cause.
10'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
This is very specific showing the interval between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and what happens. Revelation begins speaking of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and it details these two days in the seals, in the trumpets and in the bowls.
But I am convinced that what is said is just showing part of a progressive walk that anyone can follow through levels.
But those ten days begin on Rosh Hashanah, there is no doubt about this fact.
10'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
This is very specific showing the interval between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and what happens. Revelation begins speaking of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and it details these two days in the seals, in the trumpets and in the bowls.
But I am convinced that what is said is just showing part of a progressive walk that anyone can follow through levels.
But those ten days begin on Rosh Hashanah, there is no doubt about this fact.
THIS quote in Matthew is also showing what is going to happen to you if and when you make it to Rosh Hashanah/the day no man knows.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
THIS is also showing the same thing and what happens to a person who finishes his walk in the first 3 and a half years. The two witnesses are within you, and they are the water and the blood. Jesus walked his 3 and a half years in the flesh, and Jesus completed the entire season of the first rain, and his first coming pertaining to the promises of the spring rains.
WHEN YOU also walk the same path as Jesus and you die WITH HIM everyday in Passover, then YOU complete the first 3 and a half years of YOUR prophecy and walking in the flesh.
But Rosh Hashanah is a day when YOU FINALY DIE.{symbolically you are changed and truly become free}
YOU have entered into the marriage chamber and YOU have been stood up on your feet and taken to heaven.
I am convinced that Jesus was taken to heaven for this very reason, as an example to all who would follow.
Everything Revelation is showing is in a walk whether it speaks of merchant sailors in a boat upon a sea{YOU crossing over}, whether it talking about the sign in heaven with the woman and the dragon, it speaks of YOU.
The bottom line of Revelation is the fact that it is a book that shows the progressive walk in the fall high holy days.
It begins in Rosh Hashanah and comes to Shemini Atzereth.
What is going to happen is going to happen exactly according to the set plan and promises that the fall Holy days teach and offer.
Think of the first disciples and their ideas of what may happen in the spring feast days. They had no idea that Jesus was actually going to die even after they were told, and they waited on a promise for Pentecost, but they had no idea how big a thing it would be.
Hosea says that the coming of the Lord is as the rains, and all the prophets show the first coming, and after the fact, we can look back and see what was said of the first coming, and because we know what happened at the first coming, we have some sort of clue what will actually take place at the second coming and still we have no idea, not really. We wait on a promise that will give people double the amount of spirit given in the spring.
What is coming and what should we expect in the fall?
The fall coming is just like the spring coming except it is on a much grander scale, but what happened to Jesus in the first coming, also happens to his followers in the second coming, and the second coming is within the clouds.
We have before us a cloud of witnesses that God robes himself in, and to say that Jesus is coming in the clouds is to say that the kingdom will appear within his followers.
Jesus had his 3 and a half years that completed HALF a week.
Two seasons full of Holy days and each one of them has an Atzareth{conclusion day and promise of the gift of spirit on that conclusion day.}
Pentecost is the Atzareth of the Spring and Shemini Atzereth concludes the entire cycle of God. The law begins and ends on Shemini Atzereth and was given on this day just as the law was given on Pentecost.
It is the day that Rain is prayed for.
My opinion is a pretty good opinion, and where we saw John first come, we will see multitudes come as John, and they are here now, but John has his head cut off.
I would say that many have come as Elijah and they are walking their walk of flesh right now, but a day will come when they will realize that they are prophets of flesh, and they will seek to symbolically go all the way to death in order to become a new creature that is given double the power that was first given.
The same promise Elijah gives to Elisha, is the same promise we have of the two rains, the second is given in double portion.
I have already shown in post #49 that the day of the Lord does include the Tribulation. If you don't agree, and you don't, then you don't. People who make such emotional and irrational statements such as the one you made at the bottom of your post - ''The 'pre tribulation rapture' theory is a lie of the Devil and those who believe it are deceived.,' can't be reasoned with.
Mike, I hate to break it to you but you did not 'show where the day of the Lord includes the tribulation'... What you did was use a little carnal reasoning to justify your belief. The fact remains, that there is zero scriptural proof for a 'pre-tribulation' rapture when you compare the words of Jesus and Paul with each other. You are deceived on the rapture theory and until you set down your pride, God is not going to give you wisdom on this issue... God resists the proud.
Mike, I hate to break it to you but you did not 'show where the day of the Lord includes the tribulation'... What you did was use a little carnal reasoning to justify your belief. The fact remains, that there is zero scriptural proof for a 'pre-tribulation' rapture when you compare the words of Jesus and Paul with each other. You are deceived on the rapture theory and until you set down your pride, God is not going to give you wisdom on this issue... God resists the proud.
Sincerely, TC
Again, I did show that the day of the Lord includes the Tribulation (post #49 for the benefit of readers). You simply don't agree.
Location: In Thy presence is fulness of joy... Psa 16:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius
Try keeping the actual feasts of Jesus for one year and tell me how it goes, if you have a friend left, even one.
When the feast of lights comes, put up the lights a month before the feast of Tabernacles and celebrate the birth of Jesus and see what happens.
I don't know what this has to do with the topic. But I will say: we have celebrated the feasts of Israel (as fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah), and after doing so for a few years, rejoiced in the New Testament truths that we do not let anyone judge us regarding keeping Sabbaths, new moons, etc. (Colossians 2, et al.)
We celebrate Jesus every day, long for His appearing (may it be soon!), and work to hasten His return...whether that be tonight, next week, next year, or later.
I don't know what this has to do with the topic. But I will say: we have celebrated the feasts of Israel (as fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah), and after doing so for a few years, rejoiced in the New Testament truths that we do not let anyone judge us regarding keeping Sabbaths, new moons, etc. (Colossians 2, et al.)
We celebrate Jesus every day, long for His appearing (may it be soon!), and work to hasten His return...whether that be tonight, next week, next year, or later.
Messianics never judge people in New moons and Sabbaths, why would we. I don't care whether or not you keep all the laws of any of the Sabbaths or feasts of Jesus. But I do say something when people take other Sabbaths and Pagan feasts days with their traditions to then say it is about Jesus.
Judging people in new moons and Sabbaths is judging people by whether they keep all the laws associated with the feasts of Jesus, it has nothing to do with Pagan feasts and judging people in pagan feasts. I wont judge you if you don't keep all the laws of all the feast days, and if you are in another religion with feast days of other Gods, then that has nothing to do with me either. But this scripture you quote says that new moons and Sabbaths are shadows of THINGS TO COME, not things that have passed, but things to come.
The rapture is about the people who keep the feasts of Jesus and thus are marked on their forehead and right hand for what Sabbaths and feasts they do keep.
People who celebrate Babylonian feasts are in another religion, that's just my opinion, but it seems rational that a person proves who he worships by what he keeps and what his hands actually do.
There is no rapture like people imagine, but there is a honeymoon for those who are sealed in their forehead and right hand, and without that seal, there is no marriage consummation.
The seventy weaks are not divided up in the way you do it. The seventy weeks of years are straight forward with no break from when Daniel got the message. Here again is what the book of Daniel says.
DAN 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, andto anoint the most Holy."
It was in the 70th week that all took place. Jesus was anointed at the Babtism of John and went forth to save the world. And His cruxifiction for Atonement and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit also took place in the 70th week.
You are misunderstanding 9:27.
I should of said that the seventy years are staight forward from when the command was given to restore and build Jerusalem. That command was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes the King
NEH 2:1 "And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king---"
NEH 2:7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah; NEH 2:8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
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