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Okay. So what are those verses talking about? I have heard your position many times and can easily see the logic in it. But that doesn't erase the words of the Bible. So what does "eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction" mean? What is the "eternal fire"? What are we saved from when we accept Jesus as our Lord?
What are your thoughts on the questions that I asked?
Alicia, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the way, the truth, and the life . . . if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth, then believe what He said concerning the reality of what He called 'the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), and into which unregenerate mankind will be sent (Matthew 25:46). In the Book of Revelation in which John records the revelation given to him by Jesus, the eternal fire is called the lake of fire into which all whose names are not written in the book of life will be sent (Rev. 20:10-15).
There is no purgatory. The lake of fire will be the permanent abode of all who die without having received Christ as Savior.
As for Sheol/Hades, those are the Old and New Testament names for the same place. And it is not simply the grave though in some places Sheol may refer to the grave. But it is clear that Sheol also refers to the place where before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the departed, both unbelievers and believers went after they died. In Luke 16, Jesus stated that Hades had a section which He called 'Abraham's Bosom' to which the poor man (representing believers) went, and a different section in which the rich man (representing unbelievers) was in torment. Whether this was a parable or not is not the issue. The fact remains that Jesus was relating an after death experience.
Once Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven, all believers who were in Hades were transferred to heaven, and which is now where all believers go when they die. Unbelievers still go to Hades where they await the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) and their banishment to the lake of fire forever. The Bible does not go into detail concerning the lake of fire but does indicate that there will be degrees of punishment. Whether the 'fire' refers to literal fire, or simply refers to divine judgment of whatever nature perhaps cannot be known with certainty.
I simply quoted Jesus (Matthew 25:41,46; Luke 16).
Now, Mike, you know that I have taught you over and over again what the Luke 16 Parable is all about, but for some reason you just cannot comprehend it at your level of education...
As for Matthew, did he really say that or were words put into his mouth by a writer?...And besides, Matthew has nothing to do with Salvation, and it seems work-centric...
Now, Mike, you know that I have taught you over and over again what the Luke 16 Parable is all about, but for some reason you just cannot comprehend it at your level of education...
As for Matthew, did he really say that or were words put into his mouth by a writer?...And besides, Matthew has nothing to do with Salvation, and it seems work-centric...
You have no idea what Luke 16 is about. Yes, Jesus really said what is recorded in Matthew 25 and which certainly addresses the issue of eternal condemnation and eternal salvation - These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life [25:46].
What are your thoughts on the questions that I asked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Do you think that infinite suffering and torment (punishment) because of finite "sins" is something that a God who IS love would be capable of?
Mary Baker Eddy wrote in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures "'God is Love.' More than this we cannot ask, higher we cannot look, further we cannot go. To suppose that God forgives or punishes sin according as His mercy is sought or unsought, is to misunderstand Love..." Ernest Holmes, in The Science of Mind, said "The essence of love, while elusive, pervades everything...Only love knows love, and love knows only love...A universal sense alone bears witness to the divine fact: God is Love and Love is God" (qtd. in "God is Love, But is Love God?" by Elliot Miller). These ideas are reminiscent of the ancient Gnosticism. However, to quote Miller,
What was controversial about Jesus and the apostles was not that they renounced the law of Moses with its sacrificial system...but rather that they claimed that the Law was fulfilled by the life, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Christ. It was on that basis alone that the Law was set aside; thus there was never a denial of the Law's legitimacy but rather a confirmation of it
The idea that God is Love comes from 1 John 4:7-10:
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Notice verse 10, which I have underlined. Propitiation means satisfaction and appeasement. God sent his son as a satisfaction of the Law, which called for death as punishment for sin and appeasement for the just wrath of God.
J.I. Packer wrote in Knowing God (qtd. by Miller) that
When scripture speaks of God anthropomorphically, it does not imply that the limitations and imperfections which belong to the personal characteristics of us sinful creatures belong also to the corresponding qualities in our Holy Creator...
.....God's wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil. God is only angry where anger is called for. Even among men, there is such a thing as righteous indignation...But all God's indignation is righteous.
In order to fully understand that God is love, we must also recognize his wrath, for only then can we appreciate how he has saved us.
Now why did John write that "God is love" rather than "God is loving?" In the Greek there is no article to love, only to God. The fact that God is love, is truth, is righteousness, etc are all essential attributes to his nature. But "unlike humans, God's being does not consist of a complex aggregation of parts. He does not have or possess attributes that He might act on one...at the expense of another..." (Miller).
So when we speak of punishment it is not apart from God being love, but rather a part of it. Where in the Bible is sin ever called finite? Sin creates impurity in our souls and can only be purified by Jesus, and I have not found adequate evidence thus far to say that everyone is going to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Don't you think it is a very dark, sick, and twisted idea that someone should be punished over and over and over and over and over and over, forever and ever and ever....? This idea has no life in it. Has no LOVE in it. Therefore is NOT of God.
As Jesus hang on the cross dying, brutalized, he said "Father forgive them...."
The two views cannot be reconciled.
The idea of "eternal torment" is the ULTIMATE blasphemous (and most heinous) doctrines ever conconted by man.
We are warned against calling evil "good".
I do not see the idea of "eternal torment" to be the ultimate blasphemous doctrines (in fact Jesus seems to indicate that the blasphemous doctrine against the trinity is likely to be considered the ultimate blasphemous doctrine in Mark 3). I also don't believe the idea was concocted by man, given the number of references to "eternal sin," "eternal punishment," "eternal fire," and "eternal destruction" in the New Testament.
Like I wrote before, I see the logic in your reply, and I respect the thought that has gone into its formation. So I would like to know what you think of the passages that seem to speak of hell as I indicated above, and what do you believe we are being saved from if there is no hell?
Yup...I do...The problem is that you fail to understand the symbolism that is contained within that Parable...You are probably a Moderator cut: Bleep also...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Yes, Jesus really said what is recorded in Matthew 25 and which certainly addresses the issue of eternal condemnation and eternal salvation - These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life [25:46].
So you say...
Last edited by mensaguy; 03-14-2015 at 03:01 PM..
Reason: Rude personal attack removed
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